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Crosswind Landing Accident.

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Crosswind Landing Accident.

Old 4th Dec 2023, 21:24
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Crosswind Landing Accident.

BBC News - London Stansted Airport: Plane damaged while trying to land

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-67600872

I am interested to know the wind including gusts when that happened.

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Old 4th Dec 2023, 21:35
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
BBC News - London Stansted Airport: Plane damaged while trying to land

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-67600872

I am interested to know the wind including gusts when that happened.
Itís all in the report.
https://assets.publishing.service.go...99PX_01-24.pdf
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Old 4th Dec 2023, 22:17
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Thanks.
In that wind the PF should have been able to manage, without bending it.
The pilot handing skills near the ground in a decent x- wind are not there anymore.
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Old 4th Dec 2023, 23:09
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
Thanks.
In that wind the PF should have been able to manage, without bending it.
The pilot handing skills near the ground in a decent x- wind are not there anymore.
Excellent. That's it then. We are all now considered deficient because of one incident.

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Old 4th Dec 2023, 23:53
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
Thanks.
In that wind the PF should have been able to manage, without bending it.
The pilot handing skills near the ground in a decent x- wind are not there anymore.
Well my last limiting crosswind landing was pretty sweet, I still must have it.

According to the BBC article the crew has a strained relationship and had been up for 17 hours and seemed to be determined to land rather than go around so probably fairly standard biz jet ops. That might be more relevant.
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Old 5th Dec 2023, 09:28
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Originally Posted by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
Excellent. That's it then. We are all now considered deficient because of one incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPn3MBNt7Rc
There is this performance.
Not their fault as they havent been taught, as there are none around to teach them

https://www.facebook.com/reel/245688...?s=yWDuG2&fs=e

As for the 757. Not a bad effort but the PF didn't touch down with zero drift. He certainly has the capabilities to have carried that out.

Just mu 2 p's worth.

Last edited by RichardJones; 7th Dec 2023 at 10:41.
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Old 5th Dec 2023, 19:29
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I guess Wilbur and Orville must have sucked then
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Old 5th Dec 2023, 23:09
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
There is this performance.
Not their fault as they havent been taught, as there are none around to teach them

https://www.facebook.com/reel/245688...?s=yWDuG2&fs=e

As for the 757. Not a bad effort but the PF didn't touch down with zero drift.
Need to log in to Facebook to see that. Not me...
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Old 5th Dec 2023, 23:22
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Originally Posted by treadigraph
Need to log in to Facebook to see that. Not me...
Nor I. But you don't need to - just close the login popup, and you can view the video.
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Old 5th Dec 2023, 23:26
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Ah... fair enough! With the rudder that far behind P/F's feet not surprised there's some lag...
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Old 6th Dec 2023, 12:10
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
As for the 757. Not a bad effort but the PF didn't touch down with zero drift.
Nor should he with a 26G40 kts crosswind.

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Old 6th Dec 2023, 16:39
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Well I have put a B707 down with 360/ 28 gusting 33 kts. Straight across. Zero crab. I long time ago. If it can be done Zero crab in a 707 surely it can be done on a 737. 707 less forgiving,
admittedly the 707 was at max landing weight which makes it easier. Cargo.
That was one of my best efforts. X wind.

Last edited by RichardJones; 6th Dec 2023 at 17:22.
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Old 6th Dec 2023, 17:29
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Okay, first the thread drift. The 757 guy nails it, great job.

Richard J, did they build the hump on the 747 to accommodate you?

Does anyone realise that a long lens (300-400mm likely for many spotters) makes objects look closer and thereby exaggerates angles?

Back to the thread, it's actually worrying because once again it seems to indicate biz jet lack of handling skills, safety awareness, CRM and what not. Oh and you must give the boss a smooth landing no matter what. Anyone care to comment?
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Old 6th Dec 2023, 19:28
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Originally Posted by Consol
Okay, first the thread drift. The 757 guy nails it, great job.

Richard J, did they build the hump on the 747 to accommodate you?

Does anyone realise that a long lens (300-400mm likely for many spotters) makes objects look closer and thereby exaggerates angles?

Back to the thread, it's actually worrying because once again it seems to indicate biz jet lack of handling skills, safety awareness, CRM and what not. Oh and you must give the boss a smooth landing no matter what. Anyone care to comment?
The answer is no!
Look I've made more than my share of stuff ups. Domt worry about that. No I am not an ace by any stretch of the imagination, either.
What I have tried to do is maintain my standards. Tried to show a bit of finesse.
It does sadden me when I' see very e experienced Captains for example, throw the aircraft on the deck in anything resembling a crosswind.
Ok you would expect a graduate of a sausage factory to do that..
As for the aircraft handling notes. They are a legal backside covering exercise to protect the aircraft manufacturer. In basic training did we try and land sideways in a crosswind? No of course not.
A lot of these skills died when they did away with tailwheel/conventional U/C training aircraft. The way some of these people throw the aircraft on the deck, in a tricycle U/G., the tailwheel aircraft would bite.
I got on the sause one night with the chief pilot of a major European carrier. He told me that flying skills are well down on his list of selection criteria. I knew then, we were in trouble.
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Old 6th Dec 2023, 19:49
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Originally Posted by Consol
Richard J, did they build the hump on the 747 to accommodate you?
At the risk of not contributing anything useful to this thread, and with apologies to Richard, I have to say this was very funny!

(would have simply 'liked' the post, but seemingly not available on this particularly forum...)
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Old 6th Dec 2023, 19:57
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Originally Posted by First_Principal
At the risk of not contributing anything useful to this thread, and with apologies to Richard, I have to say this was very funny!

(would have simply 'liked' the post, but seemingly not available on this particularly forum...)
Whipper Snappers! No respect for the old guard! 😊
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Old 11th Dec 2023, 09:22
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
The answer is no!
Look I've made more than my share of stuff ups. Domt worry about that. No I am not an ace by any stretch of the imagination, either.
What I have tried to do is maintain my standards. Tried to show a bit of finesse.
It does sadden me when I' see very e experienced Captains for example, throw the aircraft on the deck in anything resembling a crosswind.
Ok you would expect a graduate of a sausage factory to do that..
As for the aircraft handling notes. They are a legal backside covering exercise to protect the aircraft manufacturer. In basic training did we try and land sideways in a crosswind? No of course not.
A lot of these skills died when they did away with tailwheel/conventional U/C training aircraft. The way some of these people throw the aircraft on the deck, in a tricycle U/G., the tailwheel aircraft would bite.
I got on the sause one night with the chief pilot of a major European carrier. He told me that flying skills are well down on his list of selection criteria. I knew then, we were in trouble.
Perhaps a bit out of topic as it would not apply to big jets, with low wings and low mounted engines, Way back in the past as you pointed out, tailwheel aircrafts required precised skills among those one was required to slip on final to bleed of altitude as most of the time there were no flaps.

So the slipping technique became ingrained and in general aviation allowed pilots to be mentlaly and tactically connected during the flare to allow the aircraft by slipping it, to lower the wing upwind and applying oppostite rudder so to be able to keep runway centerline in between the flare and touchdown without drifting to the downwind side.

"cross controlling" is considered dangerous and not tought anymore. Few pilots know the difference betwen the slip and the skid. And the slip contrary to the skid is not a dangerous maneuver. While it does not apply to big jets, all those handling skills now gone would have certainly helped better awareness, finesse and timing during the decrabbing before touchdown.

The result is that most pilots in general aviation often land too fast, without decrabbing, they are not tought to keep "flying" during the flare, they just flare and wait whatever happens.
If you want to land a tricycle properly, not only during a crosswing but at all times, without throwing it around, it requires the same skills as a taildragger, i.e. having it point down the runway without crab with cross controlled inputs, and letting the mains touch the ground just before stall keeping the nose wheel off the runway until loss of lift gently eases it into the ground.

Furthermore there is often a parallax problem not corrected at touchdown in side by side aircrafts, whereby the longitudinal axis is right in front of you and not passing through the prop spinner at the center of the cowling.

All these techniques may not be applicable to big jets but certainly would help be coordinated, sharp and focussed during the flare with correct timing inputs to decrab at the right moment.
Different skill may apply to different types of aircrafts, but the confidence each one of those skills provides makes anyone a better pilot.
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Old 11th Dec 2023, 14:20
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Originally Posted by markkal
Perhaps a bit out of topic as it would not apply to big jets, with low wings and low mounted engines, Way back in the past as you pointed out, tailwheel aircrafts required precised skills among those one was required to slip on final to bleed of altitude as most of the time there were no flaps.

So the slipping technique became ingrained and in general aviation allowed pilots to be mentlaly and tactically connected during the flare to allow the aircraft by slipping it, to lower the wing upwind and applying oppostite rudder so to be able to keep runway centerline in between the flare and touchdown without drifting to the downwind side.

"cross controlling" is considered dangerous and not tought anymore. Few pilots know the difference betwen the slip and the skid. And the slip contrary to the skid is not a dangerous maneuver. While it does not apply to big jets, all those handling skills now gone would have certainly helped better awareness, finesse and timing during the decrabbing before touchdown.

The result is that most pilots in general aviation often land too fast, without decrabbing, they are not tought to keep "flying" during the flare, they just flare and wait whatever happens.
If you want to land a tricycle properly, not only during a crosswing but at all times, without throwing it around, it requires the same skills as a taildragger, i.e. having it point down the runway without crab with cross controlled inputs, and letting the mains touch the ground just before stall keeping the nose wheel off the runway until loss of lift gently eases it into the ground.

Furthermore there is often a parallax problem not corrected at touchdown in side by side aircrafts, whereby the longitudinal axis is right in front of you and not passing through the prop spinner at the center of the cowling.

All these techniques may not be applicable to big jets but certainly would help be coordinated, sharp and focussed during the flare with correct timing inputs to decrab at the right moment.
Different skill may apply to different types of aircrafts, but the confidence each one of those skills provides makes anyone a better pilot.
Well said. Good post. You know your stuff. You are probably the right stuff.
The basics are the same. Doesn't matter the size of the aircraft. The big jets I have flown, were low wing monoplanes. The basices are the same as a PA 28. It's not rocket science. Don't try and reinvent the wheel.
Juggling the rudders, especially on a sweeped wing aircraft you are inviting trouble. Ease a bootful in and hold it. Some leeward rudder is better than none!!
I rest my case.
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Old 11th Dec 2023, 16:26
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How are crosswind landings taught these days? Even with low wing pod engines it's possible to safely dip the wing slightly into wind during the flare while ruddering off some of the drift, which will reduce the strain on the gear and ease directional control after touchdown. It also helps to approach with the flight deck itself tracking slightly upwind of the centreline so that at touchdown the main gear straddles the centreline.
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Old 29th Dec 2023, 21:41
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P.I.O.

Pilot Induced Osilation?

If it ain't Boeing I Ain't Going.

BBC News - 'Oh stop!' - Storm Gerrit causes plane's bumpy landing
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67830595

Last edited by RichardJones; 29th Dec 2023 at 23:15.
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