Ettyl
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What makes your virtual airline any different from what has gone before?
Does your operation have any form of oversight from CAA, ATOL, or ABTA? Excluding the obvious bit which is Eastern having an AOC.
Hopefully they'll be shut down before they get flying. The IOM needs to get a grip on these cowboy outfits before it leads to another Manx2. People lost their lives, I hope this doesn't have to be repeated before this practice is banned.
Isn't there a more fundamental issue here? This lot are selling tickets on an aircraft on which they have chartered but are not the operator, and don't have any form of visible ATOL licensing or authority to act on behalf of the AOC holder to act as a ticket provider. Right now, unless they have some suitable authority, it's breaking the law!
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I don’t believe there is such a thing as an ATOL license in the Manx jurisdiction? Assuming correct, there’s little to stop them selling seats to local punters on the island.
...that said, since the whole set up appears totally geared to selling to origin markets NOT based on the island, the UK CAA might take a rather different view.
...that said, since the whole set up appears totally geared to selling to origin markets NOT based on the island, the UK CAA might take a rather different view.
Flightrider
Illegal in the UK, allowed in the Isle Of Man. I once had a very good friend who operated for a company running services for an 'airline' that operated the same set up. He is unfortunately no longer with us due to this absurd technicality. I thought that the Isle of Man government had finally seen sense with the ending of the second iteration of Manx2, but unfortunately it seems to not be the case. I will be writing to my MP, and to the DfT to try and ensure that this 'airline' never takes to the skies. I hope anyone with any interest in aviation safety and oversight in the UK will do the same. This should NOT be allowed.
Illegal in the UK, allowed in the Isle Of Man. I once had a very good friend who operated for a company running services for an 'airline' that operated the same set up. He is unfortunately no longer with us due to this absurd technicality. I thought that the Isle of Man government had finally seen sense with the ending of the second iteration of Manx2, but unfortunately it seems to not be the case. I will be writing to my MP, and to the DfT to try and ensure that this 'airline' never takes to the skies. I hope anyone with any interest in aviation safety and oversight in the UK will do the same. This should NOT be allowed.
Also a great sign: Have a google of the MD- Jason Scales. This results comes up: https://sites.google.com/site/jasonscalesfraud/
A young MD, with no airline experience to speak of, who has a website dedicated to an alleged fraud. Come on IOM government, shut this down before it gets out of hand.
A young MD, with no airline experience to speak of, who has a website dedicated to an alleged fraud. Come on IOM government, shut this down before it gets out of hand.
Are we judging a company and its people to be guilty before it has taken any substantive actions ?
Perhaps better for the people and Government of the IoM who desire to make their own laws independent of the UK to decide what regulation they desire ? Or maybe wait until the company is seen to have engaged in unsafe practices before regulators shut it down ?
The CAA can make rules, inspect companies for compliance and if a travel-centric company breaks those rules the CAA can clobber them.... but the company should at least be given the opportunity to comply with those rules before forbidding them from even starting
Perhaps better for the people and Government of the IoM who desire to make their own laws independent of the UK to decide what regulation they desire ? Or maybe wait until the company is seen to have engaged in unsafe practices before regulators shut it down ?
The CAA can make rules, inspect companies for compliance and if a travel-centric company breaks those rules the CAA can clobber them.... but the company should at least be given the opportunity to comply with those rules before forbidding them from even starting
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planedrive
This is getting a little overhyped and out of hand now and the age is wrong too. You're making some very emotional and overhyped assertions.
Allow me to clarify a few points:
1) The article you reference pertains to a company I was contracted to assist, messy but no relevance to my personal circumstances. If it really matters to you, way back when I had my first business aged 12, nominated for the Daily Mail Enterprising Young Brits awards and have successfully established and exited multiple businesses of my own and helped others too. Ive had business failures too in that time, but i dont lead in to any investment without knowing that risk. Youre right, I've never been directly involved with aviation from an operational perspective but have hired the relevant people who do and working with strategic partners who safely operate in the sector to work on this with as a travel business.
2) This is not an airline. My primary business is in commercial property on the Island, we have set from the outset that it is a sole purpose endeavour for the Isle of Man TT. There is an assumption that this is a reincarnation of Manx2, it really isn't. We are partnering with reputable carriers, not far flung European ones (not that there's necessarily a problem with that, I guess) and we are not in any way trying to represent being an airline although the model is for seat only sales. It is actually for the good of the Island and its people. We have spent a number of weeks over the summer supporting and sponsoring local events and the Islands economy.
3) There are other separate conversations ongoing around securing relevant regulatory approval to service scheduled routes for the Isle of Man, but this will categorically not be done under a VA model and who knows if it will ever happen.
Aside from that - and with very open dialogue with relevant local authorities - the travel business will service niche opportunities and events on the Island.
This is getting a little overhyped and out of hand now and the age is wrong too. You're making some very emotional and overhyped assertions.
Allow me to clarify a few points:
1) The article you reference pertains to a company I was contracted to assist, messy but no relevance to my personal circumstances. If it really matters to you, way back when I had my first business aged 12, nominated for the Daily Mail Enterprising Young Brits awards and have successfully established and exited multiple businesses of my own and helped others too. Ive had business failures too in that time, but i dont lead in to any investment without knowing that risk. Youre right, I've never been directly involved with aviation from an operational perspective but have hired the relevant people who do and working with strategic partners who safely operate in the sector to work on this with as a travel business.
2) This is not an airline. My primary business is in commercial property on the Island, we have set from the outset that it is a sole purpose endeavour for the Isle of Man TT. There is an assumption that this is a reincarnation of Manx2, it really isn't. We are partnering with reputable carriers, not far flung European ones (not that there's necessarily a problem with that, I guess) and we are not in any way trying to represent being an airline although the model is for seat only sales. It is actually for the good of the Island and its people. We have spent a number of weeks over the summer supporting and sponsoring local events and the Islands economy.
3) There are other separate conversations ongoing around securing relevant regulatory approval to service scheduled routes for the Isle of Man, but this will categorically not be done under a VA model and who knows if it will ever happen.
Aside from that - and with very open dialogue with relevant local authorities - the travel business will service niche opportunities and events on the Island.
Last edited by JSCL; 9th Sep 2020 at 21:02.
A website hastily edited from saying they have an ATR72-600 'in their fleet' to this:
"[sic] What aircraft will I be flyin on?
Ettyl is not an airline and therefore does not operate its' own fleet. Our currently flights on sale for the Isle of Man TT 2021 are operated on an ATR 72-600."
Question 1) Why were they trying to mislead customers in the first place only to change it when pointed out?
Question 2) Is there no spelling/grammar checker in their website host system?
Amateur mistakes like this and you reckon we should leave them to run an 'airline' and just keep our fingers crossed. I'd rather action was taken before something went wrong.
"[sic] What aircraft will I be flyin on?
Ettyl is not an airline and therefore does not operate its' own fleet. Our currently flights on sale for the Isle of Man TT 2021 are operated on an ATR 72-600."
Question 1) Why were they trying to mislead customers in the first place only to change it when pointed out?
Question 2) Is there no spelling/grammar checker in their website host system?
Amateur mistakes like this and you reckon we should leave them to run an 'airline' and just keep our fingers crossed. I'd rather action was taken before something went wrong.
If they are selling tickets in the UK - and you can book for travel originating in the UK - you need an ATOL, an exemption from the need to hold an ATOL or an approved ticket seller agreement with the AOC holder. I can't see any sign of any of those and you have to have at least one of these three things before you sell tickets - not just by the time you fly. I don't know the equivalent regs in the IOM, but those are the requirements in the UK. The reply about the Daily Mail business awards is a good read, but what about the question that really matters - is this venture (in its current form and at this time) actually legal?
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Flight-rider
Jason Scales ‘MD’ has stated that if they continue with Scheduled services they won’t be a Virtual Airline.
I’m told that the IOM government were discussing the future of flights over the next few days, so we will have to await the outcome of that
Jason Scales ‘MD’ has stated that if they continue with Scheduled services they won’t be a Virtual Airline.
I’m told that the IOM government were discussing the future of flights over the next few days, so we will have to await the outcome of that
Last edited by flyerguy; 10th Sep 2020 at 01:59.
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Flightrider
The sale of a package in the UK requires ATOL and lets be honest here, we've all seen operators selling packages originating in the UK using Spanish (or other jurisdiction) bonding rather than the CAAs ATOL. Which is a ridiculous yet compliant practice.
In this instance, ATOL regulations have no standing in the Isle of Man but we have been in dialogue with both the IOM and UK CAA to ensure compliance with the 'Airline Ticketing Agent' rules in respect of the IOM TT 2021 and there are contracts in place with the operating carrier. So in response to your question, yes. There is no mark, no seal or badge to display in respect of this as you would with ATOL.
To clarify again: in its current form, this is not an airline, virtual airline or attempt to be anything in between. Its a travel business focussed on crearing much needed lower cost capacity for a specific event. The UK - unlike the US - does not have separate governance of 'public charters'. If - big if - we look to do anything more including our current review of undertaking scheduled services, then we will only do this in a fully regulated manner than a half botched bandaid airline. But that's still early days.
The sale of a package in the UK requires ATOL and lets be honest here, we've all seen operators selling packages originating in the UK using Spanish (or other jurisdiction) bonding rather than the CAAs ATOL. Which is a ridiculous yet compliant practice.
In this instance, ATOL regulations have no standing in the Isle of Man but we have been in dialogue with both the IOM and UK CAA to ensure compliance with the 'Airline Ticketing Agent' rules in respect of the IOM TT 2021 and there are contracts in place with the operating carrier. So in response to your question, yes. There is no mark, no seal or badge to display in respect of this as you would with ATOL.
To clarify again: in its current form, this is not an airline, virtual airline or attempt to be anything in between. Its a travel business focussed on crearing much needed lower cost capacity for a specific event. The UK - unlike the US - does not have separate governance of 'public charters'. If - big if - we look to do anything more including our current review of undertaking scheduled services, then we will only do this in a fully regulated manner than a half botched bandaid airline. But that's still early days.