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The true number of displaced (redundant) pilots

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The true number of displaced (redundant) pilots

Old 26th Jun 2020, 06:31
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The true number of displaced (redundant) pilots

With all of the news about pilots being made redundant (either compulsorily or voluntarily) across many carriers, I am curious as to the actual number of various type rated pilots who are now (or soon might be) without a job and will likely be looking into finding any seat they can in GA to keep their careers from falling out of the sky?
Essentially, how many extra "over-qualified" pilots are there now who will take up any upcoming GA vacancies, and thus likely stagnating any kind of movement within the industry for the foreseeable future?

Tiger A320/737: 220 - source: www.afap.**org**.au/media-releases/ArtMID/1603/ArticleID/178/all-of-virgins-220-tigerair-pilots-redundant-from-friday
QANTAS (fleets currently unknown): 220 - source: www.qantasnewsroom.**com**.au/media-releases/qantas-group-announces-post-covid-recovery-plan-and-equity-raising-for-a-stronger-future/
Jetstar: Included in QANTAS above until further information becomes available
Virgin: ?

Are there any other operators expecting redundancies or does anyone have better estimates for any numbers above?

My sincere condolences to the all-to-many of you who have been reduced to "just" a number above - you have lives and families to support and I wish you the very best whatever happens. I do think that it is still important to objectively look at how these displacements will change the landscape of aviation in Australia as a whole, and this thread hopes to serve as a guide to those who are considering the effects of all of this on their own careers, whether they are themselves displaced, stood down, still flying, or even in training.

Will keep updated with any new information anyone can provide (whether speculative or confirmed).
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 19:35
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Prob add about 500 from across the ditch (Air NZ and VANZ). A lot of kiwi pilots go to Aus for GA work.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 21:46
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Lots of expats coming home I would think?
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 23:12
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Canít speak for the other airlines, but I doubt you will see any of the surplus 220 Qantas pilots actually being made redundant.

Most likely that number will easily be absorbed by retirements / VR - ie only those that choose to ďretireĒ.

Also keep in mind, despite the naysayers, the cycle will continue, and will be in an uptrend in the next couple of years.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 23:39
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Difficult to say just yet as so many are still technically employed but not working.

Talking to collegues who are affected suggests that very few intend to head back to GA, certainly the entry level GA scene (I dont personally know of any). I think any lack of opportunity/progression at that end of town will be due to the fact there is nobody moving up to be replaced, rather than people shuffling back down.
I dont belive its pride stopping them, rather most airline guys/girls who have been made redundant are now a bit older and have estiblished lives in the major centres and for what they would get paid (certainly at the smaller end of GA) its not worth the upheaval of moving.

As with every bust there will be another boom greater than the last one, and within the next five years most who lost thier jobs and really want to stay flying will be back at it.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 02:19
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Originally Posted by cbradio View Post
Lots of expats coming home I would think?
Lots of China contacts torn up since COVID kicked off, plus 600 odd EK pilots sacked recently. Some will likely return to Oz.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 06:53
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I would rather jump off a cliff than return to GA.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 06:56
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Originally Posted by JoeTripodi View Post
I would rather jump off a cliff than return to GA.
What GA ....?
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 07:30
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Exactly. Unlike when Ansett went broke there was still a large GA market that Ansett guys found their way into. These days there are very few GA jobs that airline pilots would migrate to. I would takes a guess and say that the whole GA market has probably almost halved in size in the last 20 years.

My guess will be that the majority of people retrenched in this round will probably leave the industry unless there is an immediate economic upswing next year. People just can't wait around for years on end for a flying job. Especially those who have spent the first 10 years of their career already playing that game.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 07:58
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From initial reports..I would agree.

Of the 220 pilots flagged, 190 are targeted to come from QF (30 from JQ)

165 already shown interest in the first 24hrs...30 to hit 65 this year...150 approx in the following 3 years.

With the super complications and the 380 given 3 years, Id say the number needed would be surpassed...plenty 380 drivers over 60
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 08:18
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Already made Pilots redundant JQNZ Thursday. Email today the company want a side EBA for how long no body knows, negotiating starts July 2nd. It will definitely get worse before it gets better.

On International AJ said thats canned so why would they need an international CEO, surely the domestic could step up and do a few extra hours money saved right there. Gareth Evans runs both at JQ
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 08:39
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I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 08:52
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Originally Posted by Compylot View Post
I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.
Ahhh itís you again......

Btw there has never really been a mass transition of airline pilots back to GA since like, forever, certainly not now as itís still only just beginning, so I donít know how you can say ďmany just donít make the cutĒ. Itís more your assumptions and prejudices which make you think that airline pilots wonít make the cut. An aircraft is an aircraft, Iím sure after a bit of refamiliarisation most pilots, even long time airline pilots will ďmake the cutĒ.

And if you looked inside one of todayís light aircraft, even pistons, youíd probably be surprised at the level of automation and avionics inside of one.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 08:53
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Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Already made Pilots redundant JQNZ Thursday. Email today the company want a side EBA for how long no body knows, negotiating starts July 2nd. It will definitely get worse before it gets better.

On International AJ said thats canned so why would they need an international CEO, surely the domestic could step up and do a few extra hours money saved right there. Gareth Evans runs both at JQ

Any numbers on how many pilots or who? Older or junior..didnít a few JQNZ Dash drivers only recently head over?
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 09:02
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Ahhh it’s you again......

Btw there has never really been a mass transition of airline pilots back to GA since like, forever, certainly not now as it’s still only just beginning, so I don’t know how you can say “many just don’t make the cut”. It’s more your assumptions and prejudices which make you think that airline pilots won’t make the cut. An aircraft is an aircraft, I’m sure after a bit of refamiliarisation most pilots, even long time airline pilots will “make the cut”.

And if you looked inside one of today’s light aircraft, even pistons, you’d probably be surprised at the level of automation and avionics inside of one.
Hook, line and sinker...
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 09:05
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Originally Posted by Fujiroll76 View Post
165 already shown interest in the first 24hrs...30 to hit 65 this year...150 approx in the following 3 years.

With the super complications and the 380 given 3 years, Id say the number needed would be surpassed...plenty 380 drivers over 60
Iíd predict it would also affect anyone above the age of 60 on those fleets. Maybe even 57/58 depending on ability to retire. It may just have to be a slightly less comfortable retirement (but still far more comfortable than 95% of the population) than they were expecting.

If you know you are going to have a minimum of 3 years off work, almost certainly not in another flying role, then why come back for what will be quite an extensive refamiliarisation not just to your previous role but to Aviation, then probably an endorsement onto another aircraft type, only to fly it for a year or two on what is probably going to be a lower wage and conditions than you were used to, before hanging up the boots anyway?

After having a few months off, realising there is a world out there beyond the job, beyond jet lag, fatigue, sims, a lot may just take the money and run.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 09:21
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Originally Posted by Compylot View Post
I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.
worried we might show you a thing or two......

After all the experience and training we’ve received from the Airlines ( CRM, team building, human factors, DG’s, SOPS........the list goes on ) I’d venture to suggest we’d make much safer GA Pilot’s now than we did years ago........not even close. Obviously we would need a refresher, but it wouldn’t take long.....

But.......would we want to bother....?
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 09:23
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A heavy single?
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 09:31
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Originally Posted by Fujiroll76 View Post
From initial reports..I would agree.

Of the 220 pilots flagged, 190 are targeted to come from QF (30 from JQ)

165 already shown interest in the first 24hrs...30 to hit 65 this year...150 approx in the following 3 years.

With the super complications and the 380 given 3 years, Id say the number needed would be surpassed...plenty 380 drivers over 60
Fuji. That 165 you say have expressed an interest, is that for VR? Has something been comunicated to guys who are elidgable? If so, that's a great start.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 09:39
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Putting my head on a chopping block here but it is possible that in two to three years time, having lost pilots to early retirement and lost some back to their old industry or profession, coupled with very little training for CPL or ATPL guys due no incentive of jobs, we will face a GREATER pilot shortage than that which existed at the close of 2019. I know it sounds like a very positive few but depending on the return to international travel it is one possible outcome. I mean who is going to consider starting pilot training now with a view to CPL? Older guys that may have had another 2-4 years to go may be taken out of the pool early.
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