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Aviation Degree UNSW, Swinburne for Future 2025

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Aviation Degree UNSW, Swinburne for Future 2025

Old 19th Jul 2021, 00:01
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Aviation Degree UNSW, Swinburne for Future 2025

Hi,
I am looking for some help and advice.

So i'm only 17 at the moment but intent on becoming a pilot in aviation, it's been my passion my whole life.

With the state of the industry at the moment it seems mildly impossible to get a job right now but in my situation, i would only have my licences and be ready to look for a job probably by around 2025 when im 22 after university.

I have been looking at aviation degrees and am mainly focusing on the:
- UNSW Bachelor of Aviation (Flying)
- Swinburne Bachelor Aviation / Bachelor Business
- UNSW Bachelor Aviation (Management) with Graduate Diploma in Flying - this gives me a more management / business degree in the aviation field and all the necessary flying qualifications
- UNSW Bachelor Aviation (Management) / Bachelor Commerce

If anyone has done either of these degrees could you please provide some info about them; mainly the costs and how the fees are handled with HELP loans but also about the structure and learning intensity especially with the double degrees and how that works with the flying at Swinburne. These university websites are only helpful to an extent.

My main question is what people will think the industry will look like around 2025, which is when i would most likely finish the degree, in terms of aviation pilot jobs and maybe if qantas re-opens their QFPP?

If anyone has any information or advice that they could share I will be greatly appreciative.

Thanks

Last edited by lr911611; 19th Jul 2021 at 01:24.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 01:14
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Not trying to rain on your parade but I would personally stay away from any flying/aviation related bachelor degree. If youíre dead keen on flying Iíd get a CPL with a flying school then do a finance/business/something useful degree. Towards the end of uni top up your flying with further quals and youíll be pretty well set up as a 22yo in the event Australian airlines are either gangbusters or broke or anything in between.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 01:22
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Thanks for the response. I understand lots of people saying it's much safer to get a finance degree and flying qualifications on side. Thats why i was looking for some insight into these aviation / business / commerce double degrees because its a kind of best of both worlds.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 01:31
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Originally Posted by Maggie Island View Post
Not trying to rain on your parade but I would personally stay away from any flying/aviation related bachelor degree. If youíre dead keen on flying Iíd get a CPL with a flying school then do a finance/business/something useful degree. Towards the end of uni top up your flying with further quals and youíll be pretty well set up as a 22yo in the event Australian airlines are either gangbusters or broke or anything in between.
Absolutely agree.
A degree in anything aviation doesn't mean a hell of a lot to anyone unfortunately. IT/Finance etc... as Maggie Island said, will cover you regardless of how well/bad the Aussie aviation industry is in a few years time. And quite frankly, its anyones guess right now.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 01:34
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My advice would be forget the degree, spend the next 5-10 years in another Industry. Build up your confidence (and cash), people management skills, General life experience. Most people at 18, then 30 are completely different people. I sit next to a bloke who was a engineer in another industry for 15 years. He got his CPL at 33. He sits next to me now at 40. All self funded via GA. I also sit next to 25yr olds. Completely different pilots. One group is lazy and struggles vs the other, Iíll let you guess which one.

I would be more focused on what GA job you could get in 5 years vs Airlines. It shouldnít take too long to move up the ladder as the Airlines start poaching the regional and GA pool, then the regionals start going for the GA guys and so on...

I worked in recruitment in a previous operator. I did not even factor a degree into who I gave the job to. Just be mindful as the universities are very desperate for revenue at the moment. Careful what they promise.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 02:47
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
My advice would be forget the degree, spend the next 5-10 years in another Industry. Build up your confidence (and cash), people management skills, General life experience. Most people at 18, then 30 are completely different people. I sit next to a bloke who was a engineer in another industry for 15 years. He got his CPL at 33. He sits next to me now at 40. All self funded via GA. I also sit next to 25yr olds. Completely different pilots. One group is lazy and struggles vs the other, Iíll let you guess which one.

I would be more focused on what GA job you could get in 5 years vs Airlines. It shouldnít take too long to move up the ladder as the Airlines start poaching the regional and GA pool, then the regionals start going for the GA guys and so on...

I worked in recruitment in a previous operator. I did not even factor a degree into who I gave the job to. Just be mindful as the universities are very desperate for revenue at the moment. Careful what they promise.
Thank you for the response. I think the main reason i am looking into an aviation degree is it focuses on the aviation management side with a focus on business in aviation context and also provides me with the necessary licences rather than just getting licences at a flight school. I know employers like airlines won't necessarily care to factor a degree in but wouldn't an aviation degree be helpful to maybe get a management position within the aviation field and then work there for a while earning money to pay for more flying?
To your point, that is why i am also considering the aviation and business degrees because it gives the best of both worlds with two degrees so i can work in other industries. Do you know any information or anyone that has done this approach?
Thanks
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 04:05
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I'm going to go against the above posters and say that there is absolutely value in pursuing a degree qualification, even if you choose the single major in aviation. You may think that it limits your career choices, but having a degree in anything is what will get you into the door for a multitude of different jobs later on. There is also the case that even if you end up in a non-flying position after uni, it will set you up for a number of other roles within the aviation industry and beyond. If you want to extend your field further, go with the double degree and you will hedge your bets. But choose something that you can be passionate about as you will hate it, especially if that is the area that you end up deviating into. Or if you are a true aviation nut, find ways to put that spin on the other major- so if it is finance, look at how that might be a way into the aviation finance sector.

Putting on my crystal ball, I think that by 2025 the oversupply in the market (as a whole) will be long gone. I would say that already we are starting to see some of the bigger markets roar back to life, and through 2022/23 we will see international flying start to recover. Until we get into the semi/fully autonomous passenger aircraft there will be a need for drivers as the fleet expands.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 04:12
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Forget the degree. If you want to fly, join the military. If you don't meet the military recruiting standards, learn a trade. Plumbers and roof tilers are earning over $200/hr at the moment. You will never earn that as a pilot.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 04:27
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I think for 2020 I was paid about 6 to 7 thousand dollars per stick hour ( prior to redundancy ).
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 04:46
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Thanks for all the advice I understand both perspectives but i know i am leaning more towards the side of a degree, not specifically aviation but maybe aviation management and learn to fly afterwards but does anyone have information about these specific degrees or know anything about and the structure and workload. Would be greatly appreciated but thanks for all the responses so far.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 05:15
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
over $200/hr at the moment. You will never earn that as a pilot.
This is so incorrect. Just because you aren't doesn't mean it's impossible.


To the OP. I did the Swinburne course. Luckily my timing was a bit better, but it's been worth it for me. You also forge some very solid connections. I guess I took getting into the industry early in exchange for the fee help burden, and maybe in hindsight I should have tried to fund it as I went, but it's not something I give too much thought.


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Old 19th Jul 2021, 05:36
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Originally Posted by umop apisdn View Post
This is so incorrect. Just because you aren't doesn't mean it's impossible.


To the OP. I did the Swinburne course. Luckily my timing was a bit better, but it's been worth it for me. You also forge some very solid connections. I guess I took getting into the industry early in exchange for the fee help burden, and maybe in hindsight I should have tried to fund it as I went, but it's not something I give too much thought.
Which course did you take at Swinburne? Is there any more information you can give me about it ? maybe like how a week looked like or the intensity of work perhaps? even any bad things about the degree? anything would be great as I am trying to find more in depth info rather than whats just published on their homepage which is all about how good it is?
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 06:51
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FWIW, which is not very much, I would go with Maggie Island: get a business degree, and pursue flying as a separate activity, simultaneously or in sequence. I know naught about aviation, but my experience of universities is that the courses with a flavour CAN be rather watered down (the most extreme example is the difference between Law and Commercial Law at a uni known to me). A degree with a specialisation in Accounting, or Marketing, or Management Information, or whatever is going to be more generally useful if the aviation industry is still earthbound when you graduate, than one with 'Aviation' in front of it. Specialisations in the aviation-relevant topics might be better done as a graduate diploma add-on.

It might be that one or more of the courses you propose are actually first-rate. You're obviously doing the right thing asking here; but given you might be forced to take a job outside aviation, it might be also worthwhile trying to find out how accountants, say, think about Aviation Business degrees compared with straight Business degrees.

Good luck.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 07:25
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Another thing to ruminate over: By the time you have your degree you will qualify for an E3 visa to work in the USA. Not everyone's cup of tea, but if there are E jet jobs there and none here, you will at least have that opportunity. Not so without the degree.

That said…I am employed at a major on their top pay rate, and I can barely afford to hire tradesmen. Every airline CEO in the country is constantly complaining about tall poppy pilot pay in public, yet people just shrug when you mention trade rates.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 07:53
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Ask yourself this question,

Do I want to be a Professional Pilot?

If the answer is Yes, I would suggest you do everything you can to be that.

What do you need to be an AEROMED pilot? Or a Survey Pilot, or a Chief Flying Instructor?

The basic fact is, if you donít have a CPL, you wonít get a flying job. Without a MECIR, you wonít get an AEROMED job and without ATPL subjects you wonít get an airline job.

Do you need a degree? Not at the moment.

What portion of the degree is HECS, and what portion do you have to pay for? From the chats Iíve had with new guys/girls, itís about 50/50 split. So it costs $60k for the flying, and the other $60k is paid via HECS.

Outside of the Degree you have to pay for the CASA Exams. Thereís a couple of Thousand dollars.

When I did mine, Griffith Uni, 2000 -2004, they basically split the 7 ATPL subjects in half to create content. The actual amount of ďAviation ManagementĒ was 2 subjects out of a 3 year degree, very light on.

Like others have said, do a Business/Finance/ IT degree or a trade and learn to fly on your own.

Last year we all learnt how narrow our skill set is, there are a few guys/girls with banking/finance backgrounds that where able to get back into the finance sector and now continue to do it part time while we are back to flying.

They are making more than the $30/hour I made driving a van.

Good luck
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 08:27
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Find yourself a way of acquiring $$$'s (legally) and get to your nearest club; get your PPL; if you do go to Uni, see if they have a Uni flying squad. Be nice to the people at the club. If the aircraft need to go elsewhere for maintenance be ready and willing to take that role. Get pally with the members, who needs someone to tag along with them on a ferry trip, etc. Get those hours, once they're in your logbook they don't go away.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 11:43
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A lot are talking about getting a degree in a different field as a backup if aviation doesnít work out or the economy takes a hit.

A word of advice, plenty of people out of work for periods of time over the last year. Having a degree in a random field doesnít automatically guarantee a job, especially if the degree was gained years before. Youíll be going up against grads with very relevant and current education and willing to work at an entry level wage.

The only ones Iíve known who were able to jump into alternate careers quick were those who had maintained their knowledge and skills in an alternate career on a part time basis whilst flying, and juggling two careers simultaneously isnít easy.

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Old 19th Jul 2021, 12:39
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Originally Posted by lr911611 View Post
Which course did you take at Swinburne? Is there any more information you can give me about it ? maybe like how a week looked like or the intensity of work perhaps? even any bad things about the degree? anything would be great as I am trying to find more in depth info rather than whats just published on their homepage which is all about how good it is?
So I went through a good while ago, and I hear some parts of the flying are different and less fun now, like they don't let you do flyaways to build hours anyore. I have no idea how true that is, just thirdhand information

It definitely wasn't the kind of course you can have any kind of part time job with. I made sure I worked enough beforehand to qualify for youth allowance, so that was a big help all through uni, even though it wasn't much. I'd highly suggest you do the same. You'll have the added weight of needing somewhere to live if you're not from Melbourne.

The course consisted of a split between going to the campus and going to the airport to learn flying stuff, whether it be actual flying or theory. Something like Monday, Wednesday, Friday at the campus and Tuesday, Thursday at the airport, weekends sometimes too if you wanted to fly more.

The ENTIRE reason I did the course is so that I could have a method to afford flight training. I did not care about the degree, although, funnily enough, it has helped me out a couple of times.

The Bachelor of Aviation is pretty much just filled with interesting, but ultimately useless information. I mean sure I know what materials are best to use for a cantilevered wing, the formula for the speed of sound or how to deal with an accident, but none of that really helps me in my day to day. Anything actually useful wasn't taught and has been learned on the job. It's kind of dumb, IMO, that I can know that stuff, but have no idea how to change a tyre on a cessna, refill the brakes or replace a spark plug. The instructors are just picked from the flying school, so you generally won't get any real world advice from them either. That's not their fault, it's just how it is.

I have some.friends that did the double degree business course to "fall back on" and precisely none of them have ever fallen back on it. I mean, what kind of entry level jobs are you going to qualify for with a business degree tack-on right out of uni, that will train and mentor you, knowing that you'll bail at the first opportiunity for any flying work? It just never seemed worthwhile to me.

Ultimately you need to make the decision for yourself. Are you happy to throw all your eggs into the aviation / pilot basket and just work unskilled jobs until you get there, or do you want to set yourself up to be financially secure with an in-demand qualification or a side hustle first? I would say a business tack-on is definitely not an in demand qualification.

Thats about all I can think of for the public domain.

I'll send you a PM with another tip.

Last edited by umop apisdn; 19th Jul 2021 at 12:54.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 12:40
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Iíd suggest doing something else. Too many missed birthdays, holidays, weekends etc. in this job.

If youíre dead set on being a pilot - many of us on here were - then give yourself a backup.

If I were doing it again Iíd be doing a plumbing or electrical apprenticeship while flying on the side. If thats not your thing look at degrees, as you are. As others have said, make it something youíre interested in, not just because you think itís a ďgood ideaĒ.

As for how the industry will be in 2025, nobody knows. Itíll bounce back eventually, but there will inevitably be another unforeseen event to slow the industry down.

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Old 19th Jul 2021, 12:47
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Itís worth knowing that the ATPL framework for higher educational qualifications is on par with Diploma level study. Lots of Universities allow entry onto the 3rd year of a BSc Aviation Management course if you have an ATPL. You essentially top up your ATPL with one further year of study and get a BSc. Many integrated flying schools offer this option now but you can also do it independently as a qualified pilot, there are lots of airline pilots doing this one year top up, fitting in the study around flying schedule and hours in the cruise.

If you can find training for another job that you can always fall back on when the aviation industry dips then Iíd recommend doing that. Financially the tuition fees for 2 yrs of University study are saved and can be spent in a PPL/CPL. Good luck which ever route you choose.
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