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Race to the bottom

Old 5th Aug 2022, 10:11
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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and as tossbag will enthusiastically tell you, I'm an idiot.
You're certainly not an idiot, a **** wit yes, but idiot? Far from it.
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Old 5th Aug 2022, 10:17
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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And anyway, when it comes down to it, the money you get is what your union fights for with the support of its members. Like Doctors, the AMA tightly controls surgeon numbers, the AMA is a union and its members don't carry on like pilots. So they will be paid more, because they don't carry on like pilots.
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Old 5th Aug 2022, 10:19
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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[T]he AMA tightly controls surgeon numbers
Yeah, nah.

There are power struggles and ego wars in the medical industry, too. But they are smart enough not to do it the way pilots do and there ain’t no way that the AMA has any control over who’s recognised as a surgeon.
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Old 5th Aug 2022, 10:29
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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But they are smart enough not to do it the way pilots do
Oakey-doak then, delete the tightly controlled bit and leave the bit about d!ckhead pilots
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Old 5th Aug 2022, 10:32
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Just out of interest, how does one become a surgeon? Just find an RTO in the city and rock up on a Monday morning?
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Old 5th Aug 2022, 11:25
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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A few huge differences between being a pilot and the holder of a doctors qualifications. A pilot will inevitably work with a company that will have everyone standardised and doing the same thing, even across the industry the way you fly x aircraft is pretty standardised. Medical practice is a bunch of educated beings using the technique/method the individual thinks is best, not a set procedure, even in the same facility, very rarely would you be forced to comply with a technique/method pushed by the organisation you work for. Pilots will almost always work as an employee, with few contractors and very few self employed. Doctors can be employees, contractors, own their own practice and a myriad of other options. The big bucks is the doctors/surgeons that run their own practice/business, you still might earn big dollars running a major hospital department, but you will work your ass off doing it. Pilots have known work stresses, which you can sort of relieve yourself by some time off, destressing activities, exercise. Doctors see and hear things that can really change your mental state depending on the type of work, work in mental health or emergency wards and you need to have very tough skin.

Comparing the two jobs is comparing Apples and Orangutans.

PS I watched a plumber once stick a pick right through the brown pipe while digging and a spray of stinking brown sludge went right up into his face, up nostrils and in his mouth. They deserve whatever pay they can get, that's just way more than I could ever handle. The young bloke just shook his head, wiped his mouth with his sleeve and kept digging. It was a bit awkward when he went to shake hands after the job.

Last edited by 43Inches; 5th Aug 2022 at 11:38.
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Old 5th Aug 2022, 12:14
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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I'm still wondering how a doctor becomes a surgeon, like, do you just identify as a surgeon? Because it's not controlled or anything. I get the 15 year bizzo but one day you just say, stuff it, I'm working on hearts from today, stuff general practice, too many whingers.

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 5th Aug 2022 at 15:12. Reason: Language
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Old 5th Aug 2022, 14:24
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Ryanair CEO salary back at pre-Covid levels; Pilot wages reduced until 2027 - The Brussells Times

Definitely NOT Surgeons
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Old 5th Aug 2022, 22:12
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat View Post
I didn't follow any of this. Plenty of boys and girls who secured jet commands inside 18 months when timing favoured them. So check and training Captain in 18 months ?There is no shortcutting the training requirements to be a surgeon.So there are short cuts to being a check and training Captain

I honestly can't believe you're labouring this argument. You're trying to equate a job that requires 15 years of tertiary and above training and qualification with something you can do as a year 10 drop-out, and do perfectly well. No, the equate was more along the lines of pay versus time to get there, responsibility, and proficiency. I may be wrong but do not believe that the medical profession has yearly checks etc. and also guess I am wrong and you can be a check and training Captain in months?

There is nothing wrong with our job, but don't get carried away thinking it makes you special. Given knowledge of the medical profession, getting a second opinion is a necessity now days so being special is due to what, years of training or proficiency in your area.
You drive a bus. It's not difficult, it doesn't require a decade of training and nearly anyone can do it. Yes it has become easier in that technology has made the requirement of command decisions less onerous but the companies demand for profits has added to the pressure of those decisions.

BTW, love that you think all that is required to attain a degree in pure mathematics is a good memory. Highly entertaining take.Pure mathematics? Given the number of applicants, with degrees, that I have been fortunate enough to assess I am not even certain that a brain is required. .
The number of mistakes made by the medical profession and surgeons in particular (some fatal) that I am personally acquainted with would equate to a major accident if not weekly than monthly in commercial aviation.Now you might not believe that you should feel a bit special, even just a teeny weeny bit, when someone puts their trust and lives in your hand even as a bus driver but I disagree

Last edited by finestkind; 5th Aug 2022 at 22:31.
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Old 5th Aug 2022, 22:55
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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You guys are delusional comparing pilots to doctors. Pilots need to be compared to other vocational careers such as
tradies/bus/train/ferry drivers.

Doctors are not unionised and their earning potential is does not have a roof if they run a successful business. However to get there, there is a requirement of getting a 99 ATAR and performing well at uni/internship to even be considered for a speciality program. Then there’s the additional unpaid research, exams, stress, dealing with death.

Pilots are simply out of touch comparing sitting in the cruise for 10 hours whinging about the EBA or the company to people who have to work 12 hour days constantly, dealing with people and their issues and risking being sued constantly.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 00:07
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
…there ain’t no way that the AMA has any control over who’s recognised as a surgeon.
Perhaps not, but the RACS most certainly does! It’s been suggested the various medical colleges restrict the number of training positions for surgeons and other specialties to ensure that supply is less than demand, thus bolstering their exorbitant pay packets.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 00:23
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps not, but the RACS most certainly does!
Phew! Here I am thinking that just any doctor can rock up with a scalpel! A bit like just any CPL can rock up to an A320 apparently.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 00:25
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly, imagine the same for pilots, a body that dictates the standards and requirements and decides who can enter the industry.

Like I said, we have a lot to learn from them.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 01:02
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Mythology and rumors. Having an entry ATAR of 99% combined with a massive demand for medical professionals across the board, combined with it requiring people that want to be doctors and willing to endure the mess, long hours, dealing with real people problems and the long and difficult study requirements means there will always be a shortage of doctors. Regardless of how many we train there is also a massive intake of overseas qualified doctors to fill gaps, as we all would have encountered across the board. Pilots can be trained from a much larger pool of the community, however there is a limiting factor of how many actually want to be pilots for a career, it's a lot less of the population than say 40 years ago. If you want a better comparison then the local shipping industry is closer, the maritime union does actually control the amount of skippers that are trained and you have to be recommended to be admitted to the training. That being said there is not a huge amount of jobs within Australia on ships that wholly have to comply with Australian crew requirements, international shipping is a dogs breakfast of conditions and crews. Experienced ships masters are in high demand and paid very well, you might make serious money just being contracted to ferry a ship over a few weeks that a pilot makes in a year. A mate is an experienced captain, tried to retire at 50 with millions in the bank, kept getting calls for one last trip and couldn't refuse the six figure numbers they kept throwing for a few weeks sailing because no one else could do it. Him and the wife now spend up to six months of the year in the south of France aboard their own largish boat pottering around sampling the good life.

Last edited by 43Inches; 6th Aug 2022 at 01:12.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 04:43
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Having an entry ATAR of 99% combined with a massive demand for medical professionals across the board, combined with it requiring people that want to be doctors and willing to endure the mess, long hours, dealing with real people problems and the long and difficult study requirements means there will always be a shortage of doctors.
I’m sure we would all agree that high academic achievement is something that’s essential for a career in medicine. Nevertheless, the very high ATAR requirements are set by the universities in response to demand for the limited number of places funded by the Federal Government; they are not a requirement for the job per se and there is hardly a shortage of applicants. A person with an ATAR of 99 or higher does not necessarily make a better doctor than someone with an ATAR of 95. The notion that only those who achieve an ATAR of 99 or higher are capable of passing the course and becoming good doctors is elitist nonsense.

Last edited by BuzzBox; 6th Aug 2022 at 06:14.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 05:16
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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The funniest part is you lot think surgeons only make $500k haha. Pulling seven figures by mid 30s isn't unusal once moving into private practice.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 06:09
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by shortshortz View Post
The funniest part is you lot think surgeons only make $500k haha. Pulling seven figures by mid 30s isn't unusal once moving into private practice.
Is this like the SO on over $200k a year, or the A330 trainer on $500k a year.... you know, the ones we all hear of but never meet.

No doubt one or more have, but to imply its the norm? I've never met a mid 30s surgeon earning over $1m a year myself. I could be sheltered, or it could be the exception rather than the norm.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 08:29
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lapon View Post
Is this like the SO on over $200k a year, or the A330 trainer on $500k a year.... you know, the ones we all hear of but never meet.

No doubt one or more have, but to imply its the norm? I've never met a mid 30s surgeon earning over $1m a year myself. I could be sheltered, or it could be the exception rather than the norm.
Chase it hard and you'll go well over that
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 12:54
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by shortshortz View Post
Chase it hard and you'll go well over that
I have no interest in chasing anything or working hard myself.

I just hope to one day met the man / the myth / the legend. Everyone has a mate thats done it (except for me it seems), but nobody I speak to has actually made these salaries themselves.
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Old 7th Aug 2022, 00:16
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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43inches has hit the nail on the head.

The undeniable reality is that automation has already removed the need for pilots who operate between city pairs which allow the autopilot to remain on until 200AGL. OK, not next week but not that far in the future. Checkout the USAF UAV fleet. You can be sure airline managers and aircraft and avionics manufacturers have long been doing so.

The cost savings resulting in the removal of pilots is enormous and not just in salaries. If you were an airline manager, you’d be working to implement this as soon as possible. Pilots in certain specific areas of aviation will be extinct, it’s only a matter of time. Coincidentally, those areas are also the ones where pilots are paid the most.

I remember the halcyon days of FEs…. They too thought they were indispensable.

5 years ago, I had a go playing with a $2000 Mavic drone, the amazing automation and capabilities in this toy certainly opened my eyes. I assume the new models are even more capable. There’s your clue.



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