Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

The tragic case of Archie Battersbee

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

The tragic case of Archie Battersbee

Old 4th Aug 2022, 13:21
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,482
The tragic case of Archie Battersbee

This very unfortunate case has been running for 4 months now, ever since the unfortunate young lad apparently suffered extremely serious injury in his bedroom, possibly as a result of taking part in an online challenge. The first reaction is naturally to sympathise with his parents who have been left in a terrible situation, not the least of which must be the feelings of personal guilt over how they allowed him to take part in such dangerous behaviour in his own bedroom.

There's a very useful timeline in this BBC News piece:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-62418257

However it has now become something of a legal and medical farce. One the one hand there is a group of skilled doctors who have come to the conclusion that Archie is essentially brain dead and only being sustained by machine; while on the other hand there is the parents who appear to first off believe that they know better than the physicians, and secondly have taken on, or been taken on by a religious group Christian Concern who between them appear to have totally lost sight of the welfare of the young man and are, for whatever reason using any legal wheeze they can to put off the inevitable.

Have gone through the High Court, Appeal, Court, Supreme Court, the UK and the ECHR and failed to prevent the machinery been turned off the whole circus appears to have been cynically shifted to moving him from hospital to hospice, and they are going through, yes, the High Court, undoubtedly to be followed by Appeal Court, Supreme Court etc etc. Then just to add to the farce, the hospital trust caring for Archie says that the reason they won't countenance moving him from hospital to hospice is because it might harm him, when they have already stated that keeping him alive in hospital is prolonging his death.

All this time a bed is being taken up in a hospital that could, and probably should be being used to give a chance to someone that still has one, and it is entirely possible that at least one person could have died whilst these pointless legal wrangles have been going on, which have seemingly become nothing more than clever delaying tactics. To start with I had a great deal of sympathy for the parents, but this has been draining away every time I listen to the mother who is clearly, for whatever reason, either mental or religious, in total denial of the situation.

Question is, am I just plain callous?
ATNotts is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 13:59
  #2 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 58
Posts: 10,111
Callous? Nope. I agree. Desperately sad situation but it must be accepted for what it is. Despite what the trust says, he really ought to be moved to a hospice now and allowed to die with dignity.

I've never had to visit a hospice but my friend's mum and dad both spent their last few days in one and she says it was so much more peaceful...

treadigraph is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 14:19
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 335
Question is, am I just plain callous?
No I don't think so, the worst that could be said is pragmatic.

I have four sons (and a lot of grey hair) and I have always dreaded being in this position. My wife is medically trained and is of the opinion that it is time to let him go, but that transferring him to a hospice would be a far better environment for him to pass, if only for the parents and family.

WB627 is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 14:22
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 24,026
The problem is the rare cases like this

https://kgov.com/brain-dead-patients-who-have-recovered

Treddi, my sister used to work at a Hospice and nothing was to much for them, if they wanted ice cream at a silly hour they would get it etc, she was always struck by the "don't bother if it's to much trouble" attitude that the patients in their care had.
She wasn't allowed to talk about the patients and only did once after the patient whom we both knew told her to say hello to me, my life long best friend, who I grew up with from the age of about 2 up until I joined the RAF at 17 and saw off and on afterwards when visiting my parents... He had followed a different route as a rally team mechanic for an ex World Champion travelling the world to hot and sunny places and that was his downfall, skin cancer from all that exposure. Sadly taken in his early forties.

..

Last edited by NutLoose; 4th Aug 2022 at 14:33.
NutLoose is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 14:22
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 41
I agree to die in a hospice would be the best end of life but the hospital trust has grave concerns whether he would actually survive the journey & you could imagine the out cry if he died in transit so I am of the opinion of leave him where he is to die in peace!
Jackjones1 is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 14:31
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 335
I think that provided the risks of transfer are explained to the parents and they still wish to go ahead, provide all care is taken in undertaking that transfer, if he dies en route, I can't see there being big issues certainly not by the parents. I suspect that the Trust is exceedingly risk adverse and switching off life suport is the best option for them.

Like Nutty, I worry about the (very) rare cases where people have subsequently recovered.

To be fair to his mother, she is very emotionally involved and as any mother would, I hope, doing everything she can to save her son.

WB627 is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 15:09
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Bristol,UK
Posts: 225
There was a very moving interview with a mother on the Today programme yesterday,.
She wanted her child moved to a hospice but it was explained to her that her daughter had a high chance of an issue during the journey that could lead to her dying in an ambulance at the side of the road so she accepted the doctor's advice.
It was on at about 07:50 if anyone wants to catch up on it.
under_exposed is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 15:57
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bedford, UK
Age: 68
Posts: 1,299
I wonder what the mechanics of switching off the machine actually are, bit of a drama for the person turning the switches. However, was this ever really about the patient and not the mother ?
There's a well publicised covid case that I wonder about too.
If some people cling to belief in the possibility of miracles then discussion becomes pointless.
Mr Optimistic is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 16:06
  #9 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,482
Originally Posted by under_exposed View Post
There was a very moving interview with a mother on the Today programme yesterday,.
She wanted her child moved to a hospice but it was explained to her that her daughter had a high chance of an issue during the journey that could lead to her dying in an ambulance at the side of the road so she accepted the doctor's advice.
It was on at about 07:50 if anyone wants to catch up on it.
Problem is she doesn't appear to have accepted the doctor's advice and the question of him being moved to a hospice is before the High Court now.

Mr Optimistic,

That about sums it up. It may have been about Archie to begin with, latterly it has been about the mother.
ATNotts is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 17:58
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: Up Narf
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
This very unfortunate case has been running for 4 months now, ever since the unfortunate young lad apparently suffered extremely serious injury in his bedroom, possibly as a result of taking part in an online challenge. The first reaction is naturally to sympathise with his parents who have been left in a terrible situation, not the least of which must be the feelings of personal guilt over how they allowed him to take part in such dangerous behaviour in his own bedroom.

There's a very useful timeline in this BBC News piece:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-62418257

However it has now become something of a legal and medical farce. One the one hand there is a group of skilled doctors who have come to the conclusion that Archie is essentially brain dead and only being sustained by machine; while on the other hand there is the parents who appear to first off believe that they know better than the physicians, and secondly have taken on, or been taken on by a religious group Christian Concern who between them appear to have totally lost sight of the welfare of the young man and are, for whatever reason using any legal wheeze they can to put off the inevitable.

Have gone through the High Court, Appeal, Court, Supreme Court, the UK and the ECHR and failed to prevent the machinery been turned off the whole circus appears to have been cynically shifted to moving him from hospital to hospice, and they are going through, yes, the High Court, undoubtedly to be followed by Appeal Court, Supreme Court etc etc. Then just to add to the farce, the hospital trust caring for Archie says that the reason they won't countenance moving him from hospital to hospice is because it might harm him, when they have already stated that keeping him alive in hospital is prolonging his death.

All this time a bed is being taken up in a hospital that could, and probably should be being used to give a chance to someone that still has one, and it is entirely possible that at least one person could have died whilst these pointless legal wrangles have been going on, which have seemingly become nothing more than clever delaying tactics. To start with I had a great deal of sympathy for the parents, but this has been draining away every time I listen to the mother who is clearly, for whatever reason, either mental or religious, in total denial of the situation.

Question is, am I just plain callous?
No I don't think you are. Alas we will never know what the lad did to damage his health to the point of brain death. If he cannot survive without life support it is tragic but as you say, others the may pull out of tragic situations are very likely to be getting reduced care. Only winners are lawyers.
Diff Tail Shim is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 18:22
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 14,129
Worth a read:

Expert reaction to the latest in the Archie Battersbee case

in its entirety, particularly this paragraph:

"UK law is admirable in recognising the rights of the child and acting on the basis that the best interests of the child cannot be overruled by parental wishes. This may at first appear to be a callous response in the face of unbearable parental grief, but that same grief often makes objectivity difficult. When parents and a child's doctors disagree – and this is rare – the best recourse is to an independent decision where the child's interests are placed first. When life sustaining treatment is futile, continuation is not in the patient's best interests."
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 18:47
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 393
Awfully sad - but if he could be released to a hospice, or to go home they surely would have by now arranged it -
but he could/would die most likely on the way -
also how much equipment now is keeping him alive>? probably a shed load, so how can that go to a Hospice or his home >?
End of life care at a Hospice is vastly different to the IDU he has now, so Hospice/Home is most likely and simply not possible.

However, if the parents want to take him home to die but without any assistance then frankly why not >?
Or is that not being granted too>?

My best pal died 5 years of leukemia in a wonderful hospital with amazing end of life care, and yes he begged me to get him to a Hospice to die, but he was quickly so ill he could barely be moved. This all happened in less than a few days.
I have every empathy here but the lad is not going to survive. OK, I am not a parent but we all see the big picture.

As to why the Lad ended up like this>?
was it a sex game/auto-eroticism gone wrong - even 12 year olds will shock you with what they watch online,
or,
he wanted to play and fool around with some stupid social media internet gaffs/gags/games/dares -
or he wanted to or try to kill himself..Coroners got a task here....
His phone and PC will no doubt be under scrutiny - Doubt we will ever know.
rog747 is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 19:38
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 14,129
Originally Posted by rog747 View Post
However, if the parents want to take him home to die but without any assistance then frankly why not >?
Or is that not being granted too>?
Clearly not - for the same reasons as he's not going to be transferred to a hospice, either.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 19:45
  #14 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 58
Posts: 10,111
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
When life sustaining treatment is futile, continuation is not in the patient's best interests:
Nor in the parents' best interests I'd think, though one fully understands their motivation for clinging to hope...
treadigraph is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 19:49
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 197
I believe it was a Tik Tok stunt that went terribly wrong.

Apart from his mother, this must also be an ordeal for the Doctors and Nurses charged with his care.



I would hope this would lead to more parents educating their kids about these stupid social media stunts that risk their lives for the brief adoration of people they don't know.

From doing pull ups on the side of a skyscraper, base jumping, Climbing towers and cranes, selfies on the edge of cliffs, getting to close. to wild animals, stunt riding on the parapets of buildings and walking into machinery for the 'Like.'

Such continued and pointless waste of young lives.

The Social Media platforms have a lot to answer for.
Spunky Monkey is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 20:06
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sunnydale
Posts: 217
My partner is an intensive care nurse.

I spoke to her about this because it has really affected me. Especially when I saw a picture of him holding a trophy. I have the same picture of my daughter holding a trophy in exactly the same way.

A hospice cannot ventilate a person. He will be driven to the hospice in an ambulance with a doctor and a nurse. He will be wheeled in to the hospice. The ventilator will be disconnected he will die within a few minutes. The drive to the hospice is pointless. But the relationship between family and hospital have deteriorated to such a point that his family want him to die anywhere but in the hospital.

There are no winners in this. The family are devastated they have lost their child. The doctors and nurses would do anything they could to save his life. But he is dead. As has been stated, this is just extending his horrific death.

As has been pointed out, the social media platforms that allow this stuff to be published are the scum of the earth. That is where our anger and disgust should be directed.
back to Boeing is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 21:12
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kristiansand
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by back to Boeing View Post

There are no winners in this. The family are devastated they have lost their child. The doctors and nurses would do anything they could to save his life. But he is dead. As has been stated, this is just extending his horrific death.

As has been pointed out, the social media platforms that allow this stuff to be published are the scum of the earth. That is where our anger and disgust should be directed.
Having followed this case, my understanding is Archie is already dead but his heart and circulatory system are being kept operative purely by machine. The minute he is disconnected, the functioning will just cease. The brain stem that controls basic body functions such as breathing, swallowing etc has already necrotised. He is beyond hospice care at this point.

Sadly, his mother in her desperate grief has used social media to publicise her efforts and garner support so I don’t think the blame is entirely on their shoulders. I can’t help feeling her vulnerability has been exploited by the Christian Legal Centre who have used the whole case to push their own agenda. She has been poorly advised by them and drip fed incorrect facts about the NHS merely wanting to harvest Archie’s organs and that his severe weight loss and muscle wastage - a side effect of long term ICU - are indicators that he is either being starved or poisoned by those caring for him.

The whole scenario is an absolute tragedy and I wish the family some kind of peace.
annakm is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 21:41
  #18 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,482
annakm,

I agree, the Christian Legal Centre would appear to be manipulating the family to pursue their own twisted agenda.

Additionally as others have posted, the social media giants would appear to have some serious questions to answer
ATNotts is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 22:05
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: cowtown
Posts: 617
Can Tik, Tok be made to pay the hospital bills ?
The Doctors and Nurses are not the villains in this tragedy. Those who promote silly stunts and provide the platform for the dissemination of those stunts that end in harm need to be held to account, at the very least financially . If the National papers were to print such challenges, those publications might be held to account what difference does this on line thing really mean ? A veteran can be arrested for a tweet that would not get him barred from a pub for more than a day and Tik Tok can harm children with impunity ? The world has gone bonkers .
Tik Tok has deep pockets they should offer some financial apology or get sued out of existence .
fitliker is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2022, 22:11
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Uk
Posts: 81
Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
This very unfortunate case has been running for 4 months now, ever since the unfortunate young lad apparently suffered extremely serious injury in his bedroom, possibly as a result of taking part in an online challenge. The first reaction is naturally to sympathise with his parents who have been left in a terrible situation, not the least of which must be the feelings of personal guilt over how they allowed him to take part in such dangerous behaviour in his own bedroom.

There's a very useful timeline in this BBC News piece:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-62418257

However it has now become something of a legal and medical farce. One the one hand there is a group of skilled doctors who have come to the conclusion that Archie is essentially brain dead and only being sustained by machine; while on the other hand there is the parents who appear to first off believe that they know better than the physicians, and secondly have taken on, or been taken on by a religious group Christian Concern who between them appear to have totally lost sight of the welfare of the young man and are, for whatever reason using any legal wheeze they can to put off the inevitable.

Have gone through the High Court, Appeal, Court, Supreme Court, the UK and the ECHR and failed to prevent the machinery been turned off the whole circus appears to have been cynically shifted to moving him from hospital to hospice, and they are going through, yes, the High Court, undoubtedly to be followed by Appeal Court, Supreme Court etc etc. Then just to add to the farce, the hospital trust caring for Archie says that the reason they won't countenance moving him from hospital to hospice is because it might harm him, when they have already stated that keeping him alive in hospital is prolonging his death.

All this time a bed is being taken up in a hospital that could, and probably should be being used to give a chance to someone that still has one, and it is entirely possible that at least one person could have died whilst these pointless legal wrangles have been going on, which have seemingly become nothing more than clever delaying tactics. To start with I had a great deal of sympathy for the parents, but this has been draining away every time I listen to the mother who is clearly, for whatever reason, either mental or religious, in total denial of the situation.

Question is, am I just plain callous?
While I did have sympathy with them at first I agree this has become a farce. In reference to the bolded section he has already passed away. No further harm can come to him.

If left up to live one’s there will always be some that can not make that decision, or are coerced into not making the decision. Where the norm is for someone close to the family to sit down and tell it as it is and let them come to the right decision.
Flyhighfirst is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.