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SEP PPL any good for RAF career..?

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SEP PPL any good for RAF career..?

Old 29th Jul 2020, 14:14
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SEP PPL any good for RAF career..?

Hi guys, I wonder if the RAF still use the PPL as the first step for RAF Flying Officers.
If you already have a PPL, that must be worth a couple of rungs on the job ladder.
.
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Old 29th Jul 2020, 14:23
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It may or may not benefit you personally in the early stages of RAF flying training, but it'll get you no bonus points at all in all that goes before the flying starts. Anybody can fly a 'plane, and very many could probably fly a Hawk. That's very different to being able to be a military pilot.

CG
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Old 29th Jul 2020, 15:56
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Having a PPL didn't help me get though RN Flying Grading. As CG notes, basic poling isn't what the RAF needs, and I recognise [in later life] that I doubt I would have been much use in the driving seat to any Military airframe.
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Old 29th Jul 2020, 16:25
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You're an RAF Officer first and a pilot second; show no aptitude for Officer training and a PPL will do you no good at all; in any case, the selection tests may indicate you're better suited to a branch other than aircrew/pilot (maybe navigator or WSO).

Last edited by chevvron; 29th Jul 2020 at 17:21.
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Old 29th Jul 2020, 16:57
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The best thing you could do is not mention your PPL. Military flying training is very different from civilian flying training in that you will be expected to be able to operate a complex aircraft safely, to its limits in possibly hazardous conditions.

As a PPL you only need to be able to take your granny for a flight and not kill her!

Best way is to be an attentive student and learn with no pre-conceptions. You may well have formed some bad habits that are fine as a PPL but will get you killed in a trice when playing with the big boys. Your experience may help you initially but keep your PPL under your hat and let people think that you are just a good learner. You will very soon find that the training will become the most demanding (and most satisfying!) thing that you have done to date.

Bon chance!

Mog
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Old 29th Jul 2020, 17:09
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You will be expected to be able to operate a complex aircraft safely, to its limits in possibly hazardous conditions.
The RAF stopped letting you get near any limits several years ago Mog; duty of care or risk adversity I believe!!
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Old 29th Jul 2020, 17:29
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Originally Posted by Mogwi View Post
The best thing you could do is not mention your PPL. Military flying training is very different from civilian flying training in that you will be expected to be able to operate a complex aircraft safely, to its limits in possibly hazardous conditions.

As a PPL you only need to be able to take your granny for a flight and not kill her!

Best way is to be an attentive student and learn with no pre-conceptions. You may well have formed some bad habits that are fine as a PPL but will get you killed in a trice when playing with the big boys. Your experience may help you initially but keep your PPL under your hat and let people think that you are just a good learner. You will very soon find that the training will become the most demanding (and most satisfying!) thing that you have done to date.

Bon chance!

Mog
Keeping it "under your hat" is a dangerous game - I know of someone who did that and a) it's bloody obvious you've flown before to any QFI with half a brain, b) there's usually a box on an arrival form that includes "previous flying experience" and c) lying about or lying by omission can be viewed as a serious integrity issue. The above did not go well in the long term for said student even though he appeared to be a rockstar for about a week...

A PPL doesn't hurt, but doesn't benefit imho. Save the money, do a few hours to make sure you can actually do it and aren't a total Muppet behind a stick and throttle.
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Old 29th Jul 2020, 18:15
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
You're an RAF Officer first and a pilot second.......
Absolutely! And as Mogwi says, just keep it under your hat until asked (as pba_target notes and, I suspect, Mogwi meant!!!)- and, even then, don't make a big thing about it. As for, "worth a couple of rungs on the job ladder"????! Erm, welcome to the real world!!!!!! It might give you a slight help practically in the first few days but far more capable pilots-to-be/weapon system professionals may not even have touched an aircraft!

"Weapon system professionals" cos that's what they are more and more - 10% flying 90% tactical systems management - others may adjust that figure but I'll not be far off. More and more it will be plan a mission, rehearse a mission, revise a mission and then debrief a mission - all in Sims. Flying the Mission? Unless a Truckie, (apols to all Truckies), a small part of the business of delivering military capability on target!

Don't mean to sound "-"ve scifi. I've never held a Mil licence, but spent almost 40 years with the b*ggers and flown commercially myself outside the mob! Pains me to say this, but much respect to them all! Watching a Stovie (Sea Harrier) pilot try and sign out his jet for his first night Deck Landing - sobering!!! The guy could write more clearly after 10 pints in the bar. But, as others have noted, the days of Lord Flashheart have long gone! But still worth a watch!!!!!

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/yh...5f&action=view

And all the best btw, hope your career plans work out. Just prepare your liver for it!!! Toodle-pip! H 'n' H
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Old 29th Jul 2020, 19:33
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Originally Posted by Mogwi View Post
The best thing you could do is not mention your PPL. Military flying training is very different from civilian flying training in that you will be expected to be able to operate a complex aircraft safely, to its limits in possibly hazardous conditions.

As a PPL you only need to be able to take your granny for a flight and not kill her!

Best way is to be an attentive student and learn with no pre-conceptions. You may well have formed some bad habits that are fine as a PPL but will get you killed in a trice when playing with the big boys. Your experience may help you initially but keep your PPL under your hat and let people think that you are just a good learner. You will very soon find that the training will become the most demanding (and most satisfying!) thing that you have done to date.

Bon chance!

Mog
Fully agree with this. I did a PPL/IR and some hour building the year before I went through EFT and it spoiled my flying in more ways than one. It gave me a false sense of confidence at Biggin Hill and IOT, making me think I was gods gift to flying when I wasn’t. I had some terrible habits ingrained which I had to waste time at EFT unlearning: poor T scan, poor lookout and box circuits when I should have been learning oval circuits. The ab initio guys on my course were streamed fast jet while I was sent helicopters. So Buyer Beware!

Loved your book Mog! (Better than Sharkey’s!!)
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Old 29th Jul 2020, 21:23
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Originally Posted by Vortex Hoop View Post
...The ab initio guys on my course were streamed fast jet while I was sent helicopters. So Buyer Beware!...

So what you're saying is your superior flying skills, winning personality and rugged good looks were finally recognized?
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Old 29th Jul 2020, 21:43
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Those are the main pre-requisites for the rotary life, yes. Plus you don't have to spend the other time outside of your 15 hour flying month self abusing in a Mess in Northern Scotland or North Wales.
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Old 30th Jul 2020, 08:03
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To be a fast jet pilot the best thing you can do is buy the fastest games computer that you can afford matched wit a 52'' TV. Then the top flying simulator games and have some big relatives heaving you computer chair around whilst you are playing them.

That's all you will be doing.
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Old 30th Jul 2020, 08:39
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Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
To be a fast jet pilot the best thing you can do is buy the fastest games computer that you can afford matched wit a 52'' TV. Then the top flying simulator games and have some big relatives heaving you computer chair around whilst you are playing them.

That's all you will be doing.
If you have no fat relatives, do you have to be a helicopter pilot?

CG
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Old 30th Jul 2020, 11:44
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Keeping prior experience under your hat is not sensible. As a QFI, there is nothing more frustrating than teaching people stuff they already know, which is a waste of everyone's time and resources. If you need to train bad habits out of people, so be it - I had to go through the process myself when I did the QFI course, having drifted into using a couple of 'unusual' techniques on the front line! If you think you are God's gift to aviation and you are not, it will quickly become apparent to all concerned, and you will either get over it or find yourself following a different path.

And the one place you really do need to admit to prior experience is as part of the OASC aptitude testing. If you were to omit to mention your PPL your aptitude scores would give a false picture which may give you an unfair advantage in what is a very competitive selection and where 1 extra point can make all the difference. If that information subsequently comes to light, you can expect your service to be terminated on the basis that you lied to secure employment. There are plenty of young people who have the required honesty and integrity who will happily take your place.

On the other hand, the Service needs to recognise when people have valid experience and adjust accordingly. One of my FJ colleagues had joined with 800+ hours of operational experience (counter-insurgency) in Africa. The rigidity inherent in the FT system at the time meant he was required to start from scratch at BFT which, not surprisingly, he waltzed through. Nobody had the sense to spend e.g. 10 hours on a full assessment and then decide on what training he actually needed.
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Old 30th Jul 2020, 12:38
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Originally Posted by Fortissimo View Post

On the other hand, the Service needs to recognise when people have valid experience and adjust accordingly. One of my FJ colleagues had joined with 800+ hours of operational experience (counter-insurgency) in Africa. The rigidity inherent in the FT system at the time meant he was required to start from scratch at BFT which, not surprisingly, he waltzed through. Nobody had the sense to spend e.g. 10 hours on a full assessment and then decide on what training he actually needed.
The one who had previously flown the DC3 in Africa and later became the Boss of Yorkshire UAS? If so, he and I went through OASC selection together.
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Old 30th Jul 2020, 15:24
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As an ex QFI from a while back, I would say a PPL is not a benefit. You will have many 'bad habits' to lose before becoming effective military pilot. Gliding - now that's a good start!
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Old 30th Jul 2020, 16:03
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Originally Posted by Dan Winterland View Post
As an ex QFI from a while back, I would say a PPL is not a benefit. You will have many 'bad habits' to lose before becoming effective military pilot. Gliding - now that's a good start!
TBH, it's like any potentially "appropriate experience" in any career. If asked for the info or as and when appropriate to give the info, mention the fact - as just that - a fact. Others will then decide just how much benefit, or otherwise, that specific experience is to the individual & organisation as training progresses. Let them process/and assess things knowing the fact. Just be very wary of assuming previous experience will stand you in good stead!

I've interviewed people who, while on paper looked good, seemed to have the right experience - but insisted on telling me just how darn good they were! Did they get the job? Shown the door as I realised, no matter how good they were, (a) I'd have a riot on my hands as they'd seriously pi$$ the rest of the staff off in no time and (b), slightly more worrying, I'd probably be being had up for murder within a few weeks (if not a few days)!!!!!

Besides, really good people don't need to tell you how good they are .... true ability soon shines though ... just as total inability does!!! Now, have I mentioned just what an amazing guy good old H 'n' H is yet???? No? Well, take a seat and let me begin....................

Toodle-pip! H 'n' H
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Old 30th Jul 2020, 20:10
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PPL is a good start - many of us did so courtesy, in my case, of an RAF Scholarship.

But if you assume that you know nothing, that is an even better start.

"A couple of rungs on the job ladder" - forget it. You are deluding yourself.

Arrive - be honest - be humble - and be prepared to learn.

If you ever think that you know everything - or even anything at the beginning - then you are destined for a painful fall.

Good luck - hope it all goes well for you.
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Old 30th Jul 2020, 21:22
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scifi.

No




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Old 30th Jul 2020, 21:27
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I've signed up to PPRuNe purely to counter some of the views above.

Ex-fast-jets above has hit the nail on the head. It's not a bad a start at all, provided that you are prepared to turn up to EFT ready to park your prior knowledge and learn to fly the way your QFI's want you to fly, not the way you think it should be done. I also suspect that having a PPL demonstrates a solid commitment to, and a passion for aviation at OASC.

What makes me say this? I was one of two guys on my IOT intake to already have a PPL. Neither he nor I struggled to make the change to military flying, but we both took the view that we were starting from scratch. He was on a different EFT course to me, so I don't know exactly how he got on, but he is now a very accomplished SH pilot.

I won't give too much of my own subsequent career away, as I suspect I am very easy to identify, but with something in the region of 65 hours under my belt before starting EFT, I was able to skip or combine quite a few of the earlier EFT exercise, such as combining EoC's 1+2, C+D 1+2 etc, and finished EFT with a considerable chunk of negative FE (hours I didn't have to fly). I think I had a considerable advantage over my peers for at least the first half of EFT. That advantage had all but disappeared by basic flying training when things get trickier, but it was certainly useful.

I wouldn't listen to the nay sayers above, flying is great fun, and a PPL is a gentle and enjoyable introduction to it. Turn up to EFT ready to start from scratch, with no ego and a desire to learn and you'll be good to go 👍.

Last edited by Darkmouse; 31st Jul 2020 at 08:45.
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