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Boris and bilateral security assurances: Sweden and Finland

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Boris and bilateral security assurances: Sweden and Finland

Old 12th May 2022, 11:24
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Smile Boris and bilateral security assurances: Sweden and Finland

How do you think the Army, Navy and the RAF Chiefs of staff are feeling after Boris agreeing to come to Sweden and Finland's aid if attacked.
Are they saying this gives us a good chance of having an increased Defence budget or OMG we given most of our kit to the Ukrainians, any chance of setting the LDV again in case we're invaded by, say for argument, the French.
Before the flak I did a search for this thread and didn't find one.
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Old 12th May 2022, 12:33
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Originally Posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
How do you think the Army, Navy and the RAF Chiefs of staff are feeling after Boris agreeing to come to Sweden and Finland's aid if attacked.
Are you assuming he's telling the truth this time? . . .
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Old 12th May 2022, 12:54
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Originally Posted by Sue VÍtements View Post
Are you assuming he's telling the truth this time? . . .
Beat me to it!! We all know what a Boris promise is worth.
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Old 12th May 2022, 12:54
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It’s an insurance cover note for the period between now and their application to join NATO being accepted and being covered under Article 5.

Since they’re already NATO compliant and do joint Nordic exercises that should be a matter of, at most months.

The other items mentioned in the press releases are areas such as Cyber where, again, it should be short term until they join the relevant NATO bodies and organisations

It’s an admirable gesture of solidarity at a time of risk in Europe to reassure the public which, as they are well armed, contributes to our combined defence and does not require any increase in deployable forces - Russia being in no position to present any military threat to either whilst being embroiled in Ukraine - and probably for decades to come.

Last edited by ORAC; 12th May 2022 at 13:36. Reason: Sp and grammar
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Old 12th May 2022, 13:00
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Beat me to it!! We all know what a Boris promise is worth.
I think you’ll find that trust in the UK across Northern and Eastern Europe, as a military ally as embodied in the person of the PM, is Sky high - far more so than in many other major European NATO nations such as France or Germany.

Last edited by ORAC; 12th May 2022 at 13:36.
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Old 12th May 2022, 13:24
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
as embodied in the person of the PM
I don't understand that part of your post
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Old 12th May 2022, 13:25
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Given that both Sweden and Finland signed written agreements with Boris yesterday, and that these take some time to negotiate, I would find it hard to believe that the Chiefs of Staff were at all surprised by yesterday announcements.

In any case, don't the Military exist to discharge the security duties decided by the Government, and not the other way round?
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Old 12th May 2022, 13:43
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I don't understand that part of your post
In signing international treaties the PM is acting as the representative of the Queen in Parliament, not as an individual - it’s a constitutional point, which is why treaties don’t have to be approved by Parliament.

So it’s not “Boris” signing such a treaty, it’s the nation.

https://www.parliament.uk/globalasse...office/p14.pdf

“According to constitutional practice in the United Kingdom, Parliament has no formal role in treaty-making, as the power to do so is vested in the executive, acting on behalf of the Crown.”
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Old 12th May 2022, 13:48
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It's an unfortunate time for NATO to be rattling the bars on Russia's cage by further expanding the relentless Eastward expansion all the way to the very doorstep of what the Russian people regard as their Rodina.

They know what happens when a hostile armed Power does that and they know the consequences to themselves in terms of blood sacrifice. For us, the German and French invasions seem like ancient history. For the Russian people, not so.

Timing this announcement to coincide with Russia's Victory Day was not mere happenstance. It's a deliberate provocation. NATO is like a gangster prodding a victim in the chest and yelling 'Wanna fight?'

Threatening to subsume Ukraine into NATO was bad enough. It provoked Russia into an insane military adventure. Shoving NATO's border right up to Russia's Eastern flank in Finland cannot possibly have a good outcome. Norway has a tiny border with Russia. Finland's border is huge.
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Old 12th May 2022, 13:48
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ok thanks. I thought that was probably what you meant. Just wasn't sure

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Old 12th May 2022, 13:58
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Originally Posted by Prunus Dessicata View Post
It's an unfortunate time for NATO to be rattling the bars on Russia's cage by further expanding the relentless Eastward expansion all the way to the very doorstep of what the Russian people regard as their Rodina.

They know what happens when a hostile armed Power does that and they know the consequences to themselves in terms of blood sacrifice. For us, the German and French invasions seem like ancient history. For the Russian people, not so.

Timing this announcement to coincide with Russia's Victory Day was not mere happenstance. It's a deliberate provocation. NATO is like a gangster prodding a victim in the chest and yelling 'Wanna fight?'

Threatening to subsume Ukraine into NATO was bad enough. It provoked Russia into an insane military adventure. Shoving NATO's border right up to Russia's Eastern flank in Finland cannot possibly have a good outcome. Norway has a tiny border with Russia. Finland's border is huge.
Perhaps it's worth repeating: NATO is a defensive alliance of independent nations not a centralised hegemony. The Scandinavians have been reluctant to join, until recently, when they witnessed Russia march over its border to invade a neighbouring sovereign country. At that point they lost confidence in any Russian guarantees and sought a defensive pact with NATO.
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Old 12th May 2022, 14:19
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Originally Posted by beardy View Post
Perhaps it's worth repeating: NATO is a defensive alliance of independent nations not a centralised hegemony. The Scandinavians have been reluctant to join, until recently, when they witnessed Russia march over its border to invade a neighbouring sovereign country - despite having stated multiple times shortly before the event that it had no such intention. At that point they lost confidence in any Russian guarantees and sought a defensive pact with NATO.
Fixed FoC.



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Old 12th May 2022, 14:20
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I'm happy to separate ad homiem cries about the PM from the overall Political and Military realities all European Nations are now facing. I am deeply saddened that the fall of the USSR [which kindly led to my redundancy] has morphed into this RU v. The West scenario, with the predictable brutality and ill-discipline of RU forces.

From the UK's perspective, fiscally and militarily, IMO it's short term pain for long term gain. Putin has to be stopped, at whatever cost.

PS. I'm a Tory, and can't stand Boris.
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Old 12th May 2022, 14:21
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Originally Posted by Prunus Dessicata View Post
It's an unfortunate time for NATO to be rattling the bars on Russia's cage by further expanding the relentless Eastward expansion all the way to the very doorstep of what the Russian people regard as their Rodina.

They know what happens when a hostile armed Power does that and they know the consequences to themselves in terms of blood sacrifice. For us, the German and French invasions seem like ancient history. For the Russian people, not so.

Timing this announcement to coincide with Russia's Victory Day was not mere happenstance. It's a deliberate provocation. NATO is like a gangster prodding a victim in the chest and yelling 'Wanna fight?'

Threatening to subsume Ukraine into NATO was bad enough. It provoked Russia into an insane military adventure. Shoving NATO's border right up to Russia's Eastern flank in Finland cannot possibly have a good outcome. Norway has a tiny border with Russia. Finland's border is huge.
An interesting PoV.

At no point has NATO threatened to subsume Ukraine. Portraying NATO as a gangster and Russia as a victim suggests that the weather is somewhat different on your planet.
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Old 12th May 2022, 14:22
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“According to constitutional practice in the United Kingdom, Parliament has no formal role in treaty-making, as the power to do so is vested in the executive, acting on behalf of the Crown.”
That would be the same Crown he has lied to and repeatedly let down during his tenure I presume?

I'm sure other nations do still respect the UK but most of them appear to regard Boris himself as a scruffy clown.
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Old 12th May 2022, 14:28
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Originally Posted by Prunus Dessicata View Post
It's an unfortunate time for NATO to be rattling the bars on Russia's cage by further expanding the relentless Eastward expansion all the way to the very doorstep of what the Russian people regard as their Rodina.

They know what happens when a hostile armed Power does that and they know the consequences to themselves in terms of blood sacrifice. For us, the German and French invasions seem like ancient history. For the Russian people, not so.

Timing this announcement to coincide with Russia's Victory Day was not mere happen stance. It's a deliberate provocation. NATO is like a gangster prodding a victim in the chest and yelling 'Wanna fight?'

Threatening to subsume Ukraine into NATO was bad enough. It provoked Russia into an insane military adventure. Norway has a tiny border with Russia. Finland's border is huge.
Go on, I will bite Comrade and the Ministry of Dissinformation and Bullsh*t you no doubt work in..

Far from both countries wanting to be absorbed into "Nato's relentless eastward expansion" they were quite happy with their independence until Russia invaded Ukraine, a Sovereign Nation who although had ambitions to join NATO were years away from that.

You all keep spouting the same sh*te about denazification... while following the WW2 german playbook to the letter, I notice you also seem to forget some facts, here is one, Russia signed up to partner with nazi Germany during WW2, they would have seen that through to the end of the war if it wasn't for Germany renaging on the alliance and invading you.

The ONLY reason Finland and Sweden wishes to join is to protect their Sovereignity and their peoples, and the only reason for that is because of Russias agression in Ukraine that has driven them to that.

You really are living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe the verbiage you are spouting, please enlighten us as to the difference in "Shoving NATO's border right up to Russia's Eastern flank" as opposed to Russia attempting to take over Ukraine and shoving Russia's border up to NATO's Western flank, I am all ears.

The Cold War finished and the Soviet Union collapsed due to the Russian economy failing, something that is starting to bite again with sanctions, and the west waking up to the fact that we need to live without your gas and fuel.
I often wonder is it jealousy that drives you, seeing the Wests standard of living and freedoms, anyone who appears to gain money in Russia appears to migrate to the west to live a life that they would never be able to attain at home... strange that, you built a wall to keep your population IN, not ours out.

No wonder they left, what a dump..

https://twitter.com/MarKittyKat/status/1523752513542918144


.

Last edited by NutLoose; 12th May 2022 at 14:50.
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Old 12th May 2022, 14:43
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I thought the point in NATO was to stand together.
So why do countries have to make decisions themselves such as UK, Finland?
Shouldn't the UK make the proposal. Have it agreed in NATO and then NATO states "We will protect Finland etc"?
The point being no one country can then be singled out for retaliation.
If we have to make these decisions our selves (on behalf of NATO) because presumably NATO won't what's the point in NATO?
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Old 12th May 2022, 14:52
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Originally Posted by uxb99 View Post
I thought the point in NATO was to stand together.
So why do countries have to make decisions themselves such as UK, Finland?
Shouldn't the UK make the proposal. Have it agreed in NATO and then NATO states "We will protect Finland etc"?
The point being no one country can then be singled out for retaliation.
If we have to make these decisions our selves (on behalf of NATO) because presumably NATO won't what's the point in NATO?
Finland is not yet part of NATO, in the interim and until it becomes a part the UK has promised assistance in the event of aggression. It is easier for an individual country to act swiftly than for a large group to negotiate and agree. The point of NATO is article 5 for members only. I agree that the UK has stuck its neck out, on its own, not as a NATO representative, but the risk is there only until Finland becomes a member.
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Old 12th May 2022, 14:53
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Originally Posted by uxb99 View Post
I thought the point in NATO was to stand together.
So why do countries have to make decisions themselves such as UK, Finland?
Shouldn't the UK make the proposal. Have it agreed in NATO and then NATO states "We will protect Finland etc"?
The point being no one country can then be singled out for retaliation.
If we have to make these decisions our selves (on behalf of NATO) because presumably NATO won't what's the point in NATO?

Sorry Ivan, the point of NATO is that countries apply to join voluntarily. That first decision/request has to be Finlands - and soon Sweden - and hopefully eventually Ukraine.

It's called being free countries......
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Old 12th May 2022, 14:56
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Because at the moment they are not part of NATO, it is an agreement between two Countries to support each other in the interim independent of NATO until they are accepted and join NATO then Article 5 will come into play, where NATO will respond to any threats against an individual partner...

To paraphrase the Three Musketeers. All for one and one for all.
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