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The true state of play of the German military

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The true state of play of the German military

Old 24th Jan 2023, 04:41
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The true state of play of the German military

It makes frightening reading and is a bit to large to post in its entirety here, and you thought the MOD was bad.
It also partly explains Germany’s reluctance in sending equipment to Ukraine, they are in effect a “paper Tiger,” or should that read Leopard..

https://www.spiegel.de/international...3-ef0c27dcc797
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 09:18
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Not really news. Has been this way for at least a decade.

Shotgun Uschi had a large part to play in this as well.

A good argument against recreating BAOR. If the Boxheads can't be bothered to defend themselves, why should we do it for them?
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 11:05
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I wonder whatever happened to her? No sane individual would ever give her another position of responsibility......oh wait a minute
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 11:31
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A fascinating and disturbing article.

I do like the way the reporter writes:

Now, it is time for Lambrecht to go before the cameras and finally do what she came to do. Shower herself with praise.
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 17:23
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If the Boxheads can't be bothered to defend themselves

Their leader was a commie sympathiser who made numerous trips to Moscow 40 odd years ago. He's doing what he was told. Don't know what Mutti Merkel was up to all these years.
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 19:06
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
It makes frightening reading and is a bit to large to post in its entirety here, and you thought the MOD was bad.
https://www.spiegel.de/international...3-ef0c27dcc797
And the sad thing none of these traitors will be publicly 'hung beneath the Brandenburger Tor' for high treason or will at least be held accountable. If they had the slightest honour in them they would do seppuku... But instead they will instead get a good pension and live happily and well from that. Drives me mad.

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Old 24th Jan 2023, 19:11
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It would be better to find out why strategic assessments and arms programs went so wrong and who was behind it. Defence budgets were on record levels for years so it was not any lack of funding to blame. What they had was just not well spent.
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 19:38
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Originally Posted by farefield View Post
Don't know what Mutti Merkel was up to all these years.
This also completely puzzles me. In an interview last year she said she was well aware that Putin is a dangerous man. But it was exactly under her control that the German Armed Forces were demolished and that maximum dependency of Russian Gas was established. Refinery infrastructure and the biggest Gas reservoirs were sold off to Gazprom as late as 2019. The German provider for nuclear fuels was sold to Russia. And the list goes on and on.
And all that was after invasion of Crimea&Donbass. You can't make the stoopid sh*t up that top politicians are doing.
In my eyes she would be another top candidate for being trialed for treason.

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Old 24th Jan 2023, 19:42
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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
It would be better to find out why strategic assessments and arms programs went so wrong and who was behind it. Defence budgets were on record levels for years so it was not any lack of funding to blame. What they had was just not well spent.

Very much this.

The combination of a great deal of technical expertise and a strong view from within the Federal Government that re-armament was likely to cause offence to Germany's allies created a perfect environment for certain people with influence to profiteer. I saw a small example of this working as a contractor with H&K for a time. If we believe that the UK arms industry has few scruples time spent with a German arms company would show that we are paragons of virtue by comparison.

Money has flowed from the federal government into the pockets of the smart people in the German arms industry for years. Providing Germany with an effective defence capability was way down their agenda. The restrictions placed on Germany with respect to offensive arms gave them the perfect excuse. Should be no surprise that the outcome has been a capability mostly just in name. Not unique to Germany, either, lest anyone thinks I'm singling them out.
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 19:42
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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
It would be better to find out why strategic assessments and arms programs went so wrong and who was behind it. Defence budgets were on record levels for years so it was not any lack of funding to blame. What they had was just not well spent.
They spent it deliberately on any sh*t but heavy arms. They created children day care centers with the money. And fed thousands of civil servants pushing papers from left to right. They payed dozens of millions for consultants and power points. They only bought stuff that is not suitable for alliance or national defence even after annexation of Crimea and Donbass.The F125 fregates where the last one was commissioned end of last year are Hotel- Ships. Painted grey. For close to a billion Euro per copy. Insanity.
And they destroyed the structures that would have checked and corrected these bad directions and decisions. All that was not an accident. That was on purpose.

Last edited by henra; 24th Jan 2023 at 20:38.
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 20:47
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Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin View Post
Not really news. Has been this way for at least a decade.

Shotgun Uschi had a large part to play in this as well.

A good argument against recreating BAOR. If the Boxheads can't be bothered to defend themselves, why should we do it for them?
BAOO....BAOV.....Oder, Vistula if anything.
Those 400 Chally 1 tanks omans getting rid of. Are the hulls not the same as Challenger 2, which is just getting a new turret/gun. to become C3
We cant manufacture any hulls, anymore, wonder if these could be upgraded/brought up to scratch, who knows maybe the climate has changed for country's wanting to buy a ChallengerE. there must be the heavy industry somewhere to do it, if required. jobs a bonus. Jcb.

Last edited by MJ89; 24th Jan 2023 at 20:58.
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 21:03
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jokes offcourse, will never happen, Unless the next round of defence cuts,. .Cough. imean White paper is titled options for common sense.

Options for ok, ivan fooled us..
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 08:22
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Heavy industry in the UK , where ? Ship sailed sometime ago on that, indeed ship probably broken up on Bangladeshi beaches now.

The German defence spending has indeed been mismanaged, but it is alright looking with hindsight , but it was expected that Russia would have become more democratic and tensions eased. If you said to any Govt say in 2000 that there would a full on war in Europe in 22 years I think you would have been called mad.

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Old 25th Jan 2023, 09:26
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Originally Posted by Mr Mac View Post
The German defence spending has indeed been mismanaged, but it is alright looking with hindsight , but it was expected that Russia would have become more democratic and tensions eased. If you said to any Govt say in 2000 that there would a full on war in Europe in 22 years I think you would have been called mad.

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The direction of travel was clear from 2008 or so onwards and became even more obvious when Putin and Medvedev did their little "to me, to you, to me" dance.

It's just that no politicians wanted to face that reality. Can't spend money on defence, need skools n hospikals and diversity courses.
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 09:41
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They funded global operations like Iraq and Afghanistan quietly from their regular defence budget, ending up in cannibalizing what was left and running down equipment and staff. For some time, Cold War stores could be tapped, but now they are emptied.
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 14:00
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Yes indeed you maybe right re that two step but at the time nobody in the West called foul in any country. This state of affairs continued onwards and probably did not change until those T72 rolled last year. What has been alarming I believe in the West and also to some degree in Russia, is the prodigious use of ammunitionís of all types which will require replacing, and quickly.

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Old 25th Jan 2023, 15:02
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The UK hasnít envisaged needing industrial scale munition production since the Korean War.

Even during the Cold War the expectation was that, if it went hot, it would be a fighting retreat to the Channel using in-place stocks before it went nuclear on day 3 or 4.

Same reason we didnít have enough manpower to provide guards and shut down SHQ, supply, catering etc to provide them. Hence the shock in GW1 when all the UK units were gutted to provide the drivers, cooks etc to support 24/7 ops for months in the desert. Each 3 Sqn wing MOB providing just enough crews to just keep just one flying 24/7.

Even after that every post that wasnít ďdigitisedĒ to show it had a deployable overseas role was civilianised.
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 17:06
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The bad thing is most of the West isn't churning out new Tanks, Russia is!
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 17:11
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Originally Posted by MJ89 View Post
BAOO....BAOV.....Oder, Vistula if anything.
Those 400 Chally 1 tanks omans getting rid of. Are the hulls not the same as Challenger 2, which is just getting a new turret/gun. to become C3
We cant manufacture any hulls, anymore, wonder if these could be upgraded/brought up to scratch, who knows maybe the climate has changed for country's wanting to buy a ChallengerE. there must be the heavy industry somewhere to do it, if required. jobs a bonus. Jcb.
Germany offered to do them, though I don't know about ammo as its a different calibre to those used by Nato now.https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...o_ukraine.html
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 17:48
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There is only one Russian tank factory currently operating apparently, and it is having production issues, as not unsurprisingly they are having issues with supply chain. What they will be able to do is get on with de mothballing older vehicle's with less complex demands. As you say changing a gun on the Omani Challengers would not be straightforward, and I doubt could be done quickly enough. Also remaining with the current gun does create logistical issues in itself. You are potentially creating the Tiger / Panther issue of WW2 with different gun calibers and mechanicals. Luckily logistical planning has improved since then, but as Orac pointed out in her post, the GW logistics were a challenge.

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