The true state of play of the German military
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The true state of play of the German military
It makes frightening reading and is a bit to large to post in its entirety here, and you thought the MOD was bad.
It also partly explains Germany’s reluctance in sending equipment to Ukraine, they are in effect a “paper Tiger,” or should that read Leopard..
https://www.spiegel.de/international...3-ef0c27dcc797
It also partly explains Germany’s reluctance in sending equipment to Ukraine, they are in effect a “paper Tiger,” or should that read Leopard..
https://www.spiegel.de/international...3-ef0c27dcc797
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Not really news. Has been this way for at least a decade.
Shotgun Uschi had a large part to play in this as well.
A good argument against recreating BAOR. If the Boxheads can't be bothered to defend themselves, why should we do it for them?
Shotgun Uschi had a large part to play in this as well.
A good argument against recreating BAOR. If the Boxheads can't be bothered to defend themselves, why should we do it for them?
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Tabs please !
I wonder whatever happened to her? No sane individual would ever give her another position of responsibility......oh wait a minute 
A fascinating and disturbing article.
I do like the way the reporter writes:
I do like the way the reporter writes:
Now, it is time for Lambrecht to go before the cameras and finally do what she came to do. Shower herself with praise.
If the Boxheads can't be bothered to defend themselves
Their leader was a commie sympathiser who made numerous trips to Moscow 40 odd years ago. He's doing what he was told. Don't know what Mutti Merkel was up to all these years.
Their leader was a commie sympathiser who made numerous trips to Moscow 40 odd years ago. He's doing what he was told. Don't know what Mutti Merkel was up to all these years.
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It makes frightening reading and is a bit to large to post in its entirety here, and you thought the MOD was bad.
https://www.spiegel.de/international...3-ef0c27dcc797
https://www.spiegel.de/international...3-ef0c27dcc797
Last edited by henra; 24th Jan 2023 at 18:28.
It would be better to find out why strategic assessments and arms programs went so wrong and who was behind it. Defence budgets were on record levels for years so it was not any lack of funding to blame. What they had was just not well spent.
This also completely puzzles me. In an interview last year she said she was well aware that Putin is a dangerous man. But it was exactly under her control that the German Armed Forces were demolished and that maximum dependency of Russian Gas was established. Refinery infrastructure and the biggest Gas reservoirs were sold off to Gazprom as late as 2019. The German provider for nuclear fuels was sold to Russia. And the list goes on and on.
And all that was after invasion of Crimea&Donbass. You can't make the stoopid sh*t up that top politicians are doing.
In my eyes she would be another top candidate for being trialed for treason.
And all that was after invasion of Crimea&Donbass. You can't make the stoopid sh*t up that top politicians are doing.
In my eyes she would be another top candidate for being trialed for treason.
Last edited by henra; 24th Jan 2023 at 19:25.
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Very much this.
The combination of a great deal of technical expertise and a strong view from within the Federal Government that re-armament was likely to cause offence to Germany's allies created a perfect environment for certain people with influence to profiteer. I saw a small example of this working as a contractor with H&K for a time. If we believe that the UK arms industry has few scruples time spent with a German arms company would show that we are paragons of virtue by comparison.
Money has flowed from the federal government into the pockets of the smart people in the German arms industry for years. Providing Germany with an effective defence capability was way down their agenda. The restrictions placed on Germany with respect to offensive arms gave them the perfect excuse. Should be no surprise that the outcome has been a capability mostly just in name. Not unique to Germany, either, lest anyone thinks I'm singling them out.
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And they destroyed the structures that would have checked and corrected these bad directions and decisions. All that was not an accident. That was on purpose.
Last edited by henra; 24th Jan 2023 at 19:38.
Those 400 Chally 1 tanks omans getting rid of. Are the hulls not the same as Challenger 2, which is just getting a new turret/gun. to become C3
We cant manufacture any hulls, anymore, wonder if these could be upgraded/brought up to scratch, who knows maybe the climate has changed for country's wanting to buy a ChallengerE. there must be the heavy industry somewhere to do it, if required. jobs a bonus. Jcb.
Last edited by MJ89; 24th Jan 2023 at 19:58.
jokes offcourse, will never happen, Unless the next round of defence cuts,. .Cough. imean White paper is titled options for common sense.
Options for ok, ivan fooled us..
Options for ok, ivan fooled us..
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Mj89
Heavy industry in the UK , where ? Ship sailed sometime ago on that, indeed ship probably broken up on Bangladeshi beaches now.
The German defence spending has indeed been mismanaged, but it is alright looking with hindsight , but it was expected that Russia would have become more democratic and tensions eased. If you said to any Govt say in 2000 that there would a full on war in Europe in 22 years I think you would have been called mad.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Heavy industry in the UK , where ? Ship sailed sometime ago on that, indeed ship probably broken up on Bangladeshi beaches now.
The German defence spending has indeed been mismanaged, but it is alright looking with hindsight , but it was expected that Russia would have become more democratic and tensions eased. If you said to any Govt say in 2000 that there would a full on war in Europe in 22 years I think you would have been called mad.
Cheers
Mr Mac
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The German defence spending has indeed been mismanaged, but it is alright looking with hindsight , but it was expected that Russia would have become more democratic and tensions eased. If you said to any Govt say in 2000 that there would a full on war in Europe in 22 years I think you would have been called mad.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Cheers
Mr Mac
It's just that no politicians wanted to face that reality. Can't spend money on defence, need skools n hospikals and diversity courses.
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They funded global operations like Iraq and Afghanistan quietly from their regular defence budget, ending up in cannibalizing what was left and running down equipment and staff. For some time, Cold War stores could be tapped, but now they are emptied.
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Not a Boffin
Yes indeed you maybe right re that two step but at the time nobody in the West called foul in any country. This state of affairs continued onwards and probably did not change until those T72 rolled last year. What has been alarming I believe in the West and also to some degree in Russia, is the prodigious use of ammunition’s of all types which will require replacing, and quickly.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Yes indeed you maybe right re that two step but at the time nobody in the West called foul in any country. This state of affairs continued onwards and probably did not change until those T72 rolled last year. What has been alarming I believe in the West and also to some degree in Russia, is the prodigious use of ammunition’s of all types which will require replacing, and quickly.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The UK hasn’t envisaged needing industrial scale munition production since the Korean War.
Even during the Cold War the expectation was that, if it went hot, it would be a fighting retreat to the Channel using in-place stocks before it went nuclear on day 3 or 4.
Same reason we didn’t have enough manpower to provide guards and shut down SHQ, supply, catering etc to provide them. Hence the shock in GW1 when all the UK units were gutted to provide the drivers, cooks etc to support 24/7 ops for months in the desert. Each 3 Sqn wing MOB providing just enough crews to just keep just one flying 24/7.
Even after that every post that wasn’t “digitised” to show it had a deployable overseas role was civilianised.
Even during the Cold War the expectation was that, if it went hot, it would be a fighting retreat to the Channel using in-place stocks before it went nuclear on day 3 or 4.
Same reason we didn’t have enough manpower to provide guards and shut down SHQ, supply, catering etc to provide them. Hence the shock in GW1 when all the UK units were gutted to provide the drivers, cooks etc to support 24/7 ops for months in the desert. Each 3 Sqn wing MOB providing just enough crews to just keep just one flying 24/7.
Even after that every post that wasn’t “digitised” to show it had a deployable overseas role was civilianised.
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The bad thing is most of the West isn't churning out new Tanks, Russia is!
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BAOO....BAOV.....Oder, Vistula if anything.
Those 400 Chally 1 tanks omans getting rid of. Are the hulls not the same as Challenger 2, which is just getting a new turret/gun. to become C3
We cant manufacture any hulls, anymore, wonder if these could be upgraded/brought up to scratch, who knows maybe the climate has changed for country's wanting to buy a ChallengerE. there must be the heavy industry somewhere to do it, if required. jobs a bonus. Jcb.
Those 400 Chally 1 tanks omans getting rid of. Are the hulls not the same as Challenger 2, which is just getting a new turret/gun. to become C3
We cant manufacture any hulls, anymore, wonder if these could be upgraded/brought up to scratch, who knows maybe the climate has changed for country's wanting to buy a ChallengerE. there must be the heavy industry somewhere to do it, if required. jobs a bonus. Jcb.
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Nutlose
There is only one Russian tank factory currently operating apparently, and it is having production issues, as not unsurprisingly they are having issues with supply chain. What they will be able to do is get on with de mothballing older vehicle's with less complex demands. As you say changing a gun on the Omani Challengers would not be straightforward, and I doubt could be done quickly enough. Also remaining with the current gun does create logistical issues in itself. You are potentially creating the Tiger / Panther issue of WW2 with different gun calibers and mechanicals. Luckily logistical planning has improved since then, but as Orac pointed out in her post, the GW logistics were a challenge.
Cheers
Mr Mac
There is only one Russian tank factory currently operating apparently, and it is having production issues, as not unsurprisingly they are having issues with supply chain. What they will be able to do is get on with de mothballing older vehicle's with less complex demands. As you say changing a gun on the Omani Challengers would not be straightforward, and I doubt could be done quickly enough. Also remaining with the current gun does create logistical issues in itself. You are potentially creating the Tiger / Panther issue of WW2 with different gun calibers and mechanicals. Luckily logistical planning has improved since then, but as Orac pointed out in her post, the GW logistics were a challenge.
Cheers
Mr Mac