Flight Safety Australia article - duff gen
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Flight Safety Australia article - duff gen
Latest issue of Flight Safety Australia has an article on stall recoveries. The author (qualifications not published) says ailerons must be held neutral and only rudder should be used to level the wings as part of the recovery from a wing drop at point of stall.
This technique is an old wives tale perpetuated for decades in flying schools and still is. Sometimes referred to as "picking up the wing with rudder." The CASA Flight Instructors Manual makes no mention of this technique. Does anyone know if this technique still taught at flying schools or flight instructors courses?
This technique is an old wives tale perpetuated for decades in flying schools and still is. Sometimes referred to as "picking up the wing with rudder." The CASA Flight Instructors Manual makes no mention of this technique. Does anyone know if this technique still taught at flying schools or flight instructors courses?
Yep, many people still believe and teach this. If you try to tell them that they are doing the wrong thing, then they defend their 'own instructors' to the grave.
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So let me understand. I'm flying my C172 in a left traffic pattern for landing and when making the left turn from base to final, I get sloppy, there's a little turbulence and so on, and suddenly I hear the stall horn croak and the left wing drops. I push the yoke forward a bit and reach for the throttle. My "old instructor" wants me to step on the right rudder pedal if I have time before I auger in. Are you suggesting I should twist the yoke to the right as well? Or am I missing something?
Had an instructor student try and teach me that just this week in their stall briefing so yep still happening.
I believe in the old pub45 they mentioned it at one point and it became the standard phrase that still gets repeated today - "pick up the wing with rudder".
I believe in the old pub45 they mentioned it at one point and it became the standard phrase that still gets repeated today - "pick up the wing with rudder".
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Once the wing is unstalled level wings with aileron and recover from the nose low U/A.
If you use rudder to level wings at the stall you run a good chance of entering a spin.
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How about the alternative,
"Use rudder to prevent further auto-rotation".
I.e. identify the direction that the incipient spin is developing in, just use enough rudder to stop further rotation whilst simultaneously unstalling the wings with elevator.
"Use rudder to prevent further auto-rotation".
I.e. identify the direction that the incipient spin is developing in, just use enough rudder to stop further rotation whilst simultaneously unstalling the wings with elevator.
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Most present day training aircraft are designed to ensure stalls are benign - more like gentle nodding of the nose and certainly nothing more than a practically imperceptible movement of the wings. The problem facing instructors on these types is they are forced to fake a wing drop at the point of stall in order to tick the required Part 61 box, both during training and on tests with an Examiner.
So how do you fake a wing drop in aircraft that are benign stallers by certification and design? Unfortunately the fact is there are cowboy flying instructors who happily hack-flick-zoom and rack these poor aircraft into a steep climbing turn, go to full power and kick in full rudder.
All that does is skid the aircraft horribly as it gyrates on one wing while the instructor shouts "SEE - THERE'S a WINGDROP"...while the frighted ab- initio student thinks WTF and goes away having learned nothing.
The instructor ticks the relevant box while the CASA audit officer is satisfied that particular "competency" is also ticked off. No one seems to care that these sort of harsh and totally unnecessary manoeuvres have the propensity to put undue strain on the airframe and associated engine mounts.
Shouldn't these violent manoeuvres be written up in the maintenance release just like hard landings should be, so an LAME could check for hidden damage? Answer? Fat chance of that ever happening as unscheduled inspections cost money.
So how do you fake a wing drop in aircraft that are benign stallers by certification and design? Unfortunately the fact is there are cowboy flying instructors who happily hack-flick-zoom and rack these poor aircraft into a steep climbing turn, go to full power and kick in full rudder.
All that does is skid the aircraft horribly as it gyrates on one wing while the instructor shouts "SEE - THERE'S a WINGDROP"...while the frighted ab- initio student thinks WTF and goes away having learned nothing.
The instructor ticks the relevant box while the CASA audit officer is satisfied that particular "competency" is also ticked off. No one seems to care that these sort of harsh and totally unnecessary manoeuvres have the propensity to put undue strain on the airframe and associated engine mounts.
Shouldn't these violent manoeuvres be written up in the maintenance release just like hard landings should be, so an LAME could check for hidden damage? Answer? Fat chance of that ever happening as unscheduled inspections cost money.
Last edited by sheppey; 22nd Feb 2020 at 08:59.
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Sheppey, you are correct, training aircraft are benign. That’s why people are getting away with using rudder to pick up the wing back to wings level. Do that in some of the high performance experimentals and they will bite and bite hard.
As for how to set up a wing drop stall in something like a Cessna, I find 1500RPM, flaps 20 and a gentle turn to the right. Unless the student is brilliant with the rudder it will inevitably drop the wing to the left. With the right bank that was on initially it gives time to catch it if the student messes up the recovery before the aircraft ends up on its side.
As for how to set up a wing drop stall in something like a Cessna, I find 1500RPM, flaps 20 and a gentle turn to the right. Unless the student is brilliant with the rudder it will inevitably drop the wing to the left. With the right bank that was on initially it gives time to catch it if the student messes up the recovery before the aircraft ends up on its side.
Is there a link to that article in Flight Safety Australia - I don’t see it?
CASA was seeking feedback on this subject for an AC recently so all this wisdom here seems to be too late to influence what they publish?
https://consultation.casa.gov.au/reg...116%20v1.0.pdf
CASA was seeking feedback on this subject for an AC recently so all this wisdom here seems to be too late to influence what they publish?
https://consultation.casa.gov.au/reg...116%20v1.0.pdf
Last edited by djpil; 22nd Feb 2020 at 11:39. Reason: Included link to draft AC 61-16.
Yes that’s the Airbus technique for low slung Jet Engines........Do you think it applies to a Cessna or Piper centerline thrust propellor Aircraft? Or indeed a P3 or L188 with a blown wing?
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Centaurus: Are you sure you read correctly "Stall recovery" instead of "Spin recovery" ?
If so I would guess there has been an error , I cannot think of any knowledgeable source making such a mistake :-)
If so I would guess there has been an error , I cannot think of any knowledgeable source making such a mistake :-)
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My point of reference is having taught on the "famous" Pa38 Tomahawk for a decade or so.
Ailerons neutral, it will drop a wing either depending on it's mood but usually the left, so using the brief pick it up with rudder and prevent the aircraft from spinning.
That game usually lasts 3 divergent roll excursions before control is lost.
Repeat, but un-stall the wing, and keep the ball centred ... the aircraft flies away without drama.
All the airline FCOM material I have been exposed to over many years states, check aircraft configuration, power and attitude and essentially use procedure B
Ailerons neutral, it will drop a wing either depending on it's mood but usually the left, so using the brief pick it up with rudder and prevent the aircraft from spinning.
That game usually lasts 3 divergent roll excursions before control is lost.
Repeat, but un-stall the wing, and keep the ball centred ... the aircraft flies away without drama.
All the airline FCOM material I have been exposed to over many years states, check aircraft configuration, power and attitude and essentially use procedure B
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Im still a fan of people going and doing aerobatics. Nothing beats seeing it for real with you on the controls. And aerobatic pilots really understand the relationship between stick position, angle of attack, and stall.
Simultaneously apply full power, reduce the angle of attack sufficient to unstall the wing, and opposite rudder sufficient to prevent further wing drop (prevent further, not return to wings level).
Once the wing is unstalled level wings with aileron and recover from the nose low U/A.
If you use rudder to level wings at the stall you run a good chance of entering a spin.
Once the wing is unstalled level wings with aileron and recover from the nose low U/A.
If you use rudder to level wings at the stall you run a good chance of entering a spin.
Attempting to level the wings with rudder IS potentially dangerous.
(ex RAF CFS standards QFI)
Know nothing about Airbuses but Ill bet the above technique would work well on a bus !