The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

TOO GOOD FOR GA?

Old 23rd Aug 2023, 05:08
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 974
Received 75 Likes on 39 Posts
TOO GOOD FOR GA?

I don't know all the ins and outs on this one but would someone with GA instructor experience care to opine?

Meet the top gun CASA says is too good to train new pilots

A former Australian Defence Force top gun has been refused a flight instructor rating by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority on the basis he had the experience but not the qualifications.

Former Royal Australian Air Force squadron leader Adam Clarke challenged the decision in the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, but was unsuccessful.

In his judgment, AAT deputy president Stephen Boyle said there was much evidence to attest to Mr Clarke’s expertise as a highly skilled and trained ADF pilot.

“It may also be that because of Mr Clarke’s vast experience and training he would be able to discharge the functions associated with the authorisations he seeks,” Mr Boyle wrote.

“However that is not the enquiry directed by CASA’s regulation. That enquiry is as to the equivalence of the qualification granted by the ADF.”

In his 26 years in the RAAF, Mr Clarke flew F/A-18 hornets and instructed other pilots on the aircraft. He also worked in the 2 Flying Training School (2FTS) as a Pilatus PC-9/A instructor, and provided remedial instruction for students that required additional help.

More recently Mr Clarke worked in Saudi Arabia as an instructor on F-15SA fighter jets, and throughout his career amassed close to 5000 hours of flying time.

The tribunal heard Mr Clarke’s flight training experience was “at least equivalent to the civil standard because the platforms on which he instructed were more complex with higher performance”.

“In-flight instruction is extremely important, but it is improved and focused by pre-flight tutorials, mass briefs, before flight briefs, and most importantly debriefs,” submissions for Mr Clarke said. “These disciplines are a real strength of RAAF flying and particularly fighter flying. This allows significant student improvement and progression in a healthy learning environment.”

But CASA reasoned that as an ADF instructor, Mr Clarke trained pilots in more complex aircraft than the light recreational aircraft used by flight training schools. “It does not matter how experienced the applicant is,” CASA’s submissions to the tribunal said.

“If he has not received an equivalent flight crew qualification to the endorsements that he is now seeking then he is not entitled to the endorsement (under CASA regulations)”.

Mr Boyle concluded that to grant Mr Clarke the civilian endorsements he sought would be akin to allowing “a professor of mathematics to teach arithmetic to primary school children”.

“The professor would certainly have the technical knowledge of the subject matter, mathematics, but may be lacking the training or experience in teaching those with effectively no knowledge of mathematics,” Mr Boyle wrote. “While (Mr Clarke) has instructed at 2FTS, those he was instructing already had flight training.”

He upheld CASA’s original decision in the matter, finding the ADF qualification was not equivalent to that required by the regulator.

Mr Clarke’s solicitor Joseph Wheeler, from the International Aerospace Law and Policy Group, said his client was considering his appeal options.

“Australia is privileged to have a significant cadre of highly qualified, talented and decorated ex-defence force pilots, who after concluding their military careers set their sights upon civilian aviation,” Mr Wheeler said. “Their qualifications and experience are globally held in very high regard. Australian flying students could only benefit from lower barriers for ex-defence pilots in this regard as diversity of aviation experience is a proverbial pearl of aviation wisdom they could benefit from.”

A CASA spokesman said they met regularly with Defence “to identify opportunities to align our regulatory arrangements where appropriate”.
Behind a paywall - https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...79509f7baea10d
MickG0105 is offline  

Top Answer

23rd Aug 2023, 17:56
Checkboard
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
Posts: 5,678
Likes: 0
Received 54 Likes on 25 Posts
Military: Highly motivated, pre-screened students with military indoctrination from their initial officer's course and guaranteed deference to a higher rank officer on an invariably full-time intensive course with no income, living or training payment difficulties in a fully aerobatic aircraft with large power reserve, and on a mission to pass or cut.

Civilian: Somewhat nervous, differing ability students with greatly variable motivation and confidence sometimes with weeks between lessons and with great concerns about the cost of each lesson and thus each repeated training exercise in a non-aerobatic aircraft of limited performance and a mission to continue training to a pass level (safe, not polished) or the instructor has failed.

Yeah - I'm with CASA on this one.
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 05:30
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 1A
Posts: 8,443
Received 43 Likes on 29 Posts
I can't work out what the exact issue is. Is it that Mr Clarke is trying to get a civee instructor rating without doing all the training/tests/approvals? What "endorsements" is CASA talking about?

As for:
Mr Boyle concluded that to grant Mr Clarke the civilian endorsements he sought would be akin to allowing “a professor of mathematics to teach arithmetic to primary school children”.
​​​​​​​
Capn Bloggs is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by Capn Bloggs:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 05:45
  #3 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 974
Received 75 Likes on 39 Posts
Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
I can't work out what the exact issue is. Is it that Mr Clarke is trying to get a civee instructor rating without doing all the training/tests/approvals? What "endorsements" is CASA talking about?
I can't figure it out either but I have zero experience from that side of the equation, hence the post.

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
As for:
Mr Boyle concluded that to grant Mr Clarke the civilian endorsements he sought would be akin to allowing “a professor of mathematics to teach arithmetic to primary school children”.
​​​​​​​
Yep, that's got to be the go-to quote from that article - you get the impression that it might have been lifted from a "Utopia" script. If Mr Boyle had seen the latest NAPLAN results, he might have wanted to rethink that analogy.
​​​​​​​
MickG0105 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 05:47
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aus
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 0
Received 266 Likes on 145 Posts
So a Professor of Mathematics is not allowed to teach Primary school kids math? This is probably why Australia has terrible literacy rates, of course CASA (and our education department) would have them teach Art class while a graduate who didn't even do math at high school teaches math subjects to kids. I agree some highly educated people can be poor teachers because of personality traits, but that goes for those with low education as well. Pretty sure somebody that has a deeper understanding of a subject that also has the traits to be a good teacher is better than somebody who has very basic understanding of something....

If they are seeking RPL for the relevant experience so that they do not have to do the hours required in GA aircraft, or PMI course, I can't understand why not. That is if they still have to pass the test itself. If they are trying to get out of the test itself, I can see an issue and hurdle they will never get over.

Let them do the test, if they have what it takes they pass, done, move on and teach. Having a wide base of experience in GA is exactly what GA needs. CASA seems to prefer a method where toddlers are teaching babies to play concert piano...
43Inches is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by 43Inches:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 05:59
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Coal Face
Posts: 1,140
Received 112 Likes on 54 Posts
“The professor would certainly have the technical knowledge of the subject matter, mathematics, but may be lacking the training or experience in teaching those with effectively no knowledge of mathematics,” Mr Boyle wrote. “While (Mr Clarke) has instructed at 2FTS, those he was instructing already had flight training.”
Sounds like they weren't comfortable granting a flight instructor rating because he didn't have 'ab initio' instructional experience. (possibly)
Chronic Snoozer is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 06:01
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 5,026
Received 222 Likes on 125 Posts
Here’s a link to the AAT matter.

Essentially, CASA decided that Clarke did not hold and had not held a flight crew qualification, granted by the ADF, at least equivalent to a flight instructor rating to conduct ab initio flight training in ‘little’ piston aircraft. Here’s the relevant reg:
61.285 Australian Defence Force qualifications—recognition

Despite anything else in this Part, a member or former member of the Australian Defence Force is taken to meet the requirements under this Part for the grant of a flight crew licence, rating or endorsement, other than an examiner rating, if the member:

(a) holds, or has held, a flight crew qualification granted by the Australian Defence Force that CASA is satisfied is at least equivalent to the licence, rating or endorsement; and

(b) ...

(c) meets the aeronautical experience requirements for the licence, rating or endorsement ...
Presumably CASA is worried that Clarke would move students too quickly into transonic and supersonic configurations in the Cessna 152, and be getting them to do initial and pitch approaches.

I think the standards of literacy in our schools would be higher if there were more professors of mathematics in them teaching it.

Lead Balloon is online now  
The following 2 users liked this post by Lead Balloon:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 06:10
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Coal Face
Posts: 1,140
Received 112 Likes on 54 Posts
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
Essentially, CASA decided that Clarke did not hold and had not held a flight crew qualification, granted by the ADF, at least equivalent to a flight instructor rating to conduct ab initio flight training in ‘little’ piston aircraft. Here’s the relevant reg:Presumably CASA is worried that Clarke would move students too quickly into transonic and supersonic configurations in the Cessna 152, and be getting them to do initial and pitch approaches.
When you're used to cross country navigation at 9NM/min, the maths of doing 1.5 NM/min in a piston can be unsettling.
Chronic Snoozer is offline  
The following 3 users liked this post by Chronic Snoozer:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 06:11
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Great South East, tired and retired
Posts: 4,219
Likes: 0
Received 71 Likes on 36 Posts
So, only instructors from 1FTS can get a civvy rating, because they have had the "ab initio" experience. Instructors from 2FTS or FCI courses are apparently not eligible, despite teaching students to operate a more complex aircraft in a more complex environment. That would mean that military helo instructors would be ineligible for the qualification as well, because the students had already passed their F/W wings course.

Sounds like somebody in CA$A has a huge anti-RAAF chip on his shoulder, maybe got scrubbed off a CT4 course.
Ascend Charlie is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 06:17
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 5,026
Received 222 Likes on 125 Posts
I think you'll find that 1FTS now operates PC21s (set to 'dumb' mode) for ab initio training. No pistons any more...
Lead Balloon is online now  
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 07:20
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Great South East, tired and retired
Posts: 4,219
Likes: 0
Received 71 Likes on 36 Posts
Yeah, but to be a highly esteemed CA$A FOI he would likely be older than 40, hence the CT4 reference.
Ascend Charlie is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 07:56
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 17
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I find it very hard after all of these years to side with CASA on just about anything, however they do have some reasons that I think are worthwhile. In addition, the RAAF has done little to make anything to do with civil licences easy for their pilots. CASA used to certainly recognise all graduates of RAAF Flying Instructors Course for a Grade 3 rating. The RAAF course whether on Macchi or PC9/A up until No.100 FIC (1989 I think) prepared all instructors for Ab Initio instruction. At 100FIC they decided that they were over training the 2FTS instructors and then assumed that they only needed advanced instruction. For example, if you taught spinning you assumed that Bloggs had already done spinning at BFTS and you were just showing them how to do it in a different platform. In classic RAAF planning the ‘powers to be’ decided soon after to try ‘all through PC9/A training’. Guess what, they had few people with Ab Initio experience at 2FTS and had to conduct a number of PC9/A transitions on some BFTS instructors and post them to Pearce. After 2 courses they came to the same conclusion as they did when they tried the same thing with the Macchi, years earlier. Just as well the world is now very different and RAAF is ‘all through PC21/A training! I think RAAF is the only operator doing all through PC21/A training. And no it’s not simulators that have helped. I assume that provided CASA and the RAAF discuss this, the change to PC21/A with everyone now doing Ab Initio training should end up with all recents FIC graduates able to get a Grade 3. Dont hold your breath!
Beez.
Beez51 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 08:07
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 557
Received 47 Likes on 8 Posts
It is no different coming out of an Airline with years of training experience, you still need the GA ratings. Even more bizarre under the new rules before you can be promoted to be a training captain within the Airlines you have to have an instructor rating. I have witnessed several senior captains who have been out of GA for 30 years going off to the local to get a Grade 3 so they can become a training captain. It is one thing to master the dreaded Cessna 150 after a Boeing or an Airbus but that FOI Exam, or whatever they call it, is a little doozy. I have never read anything quite like it.

'Tis the rules chaps and flexibility or common sense is a strict liability.
By George is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by By George:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 08:27
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes on 9 Posts
Read the full judgement on austlii.edu.au (just name & CASA into search)

AAT is an independent body

The applicant was seeking stuff like FIR-1, FIR-FIR, FIR-MEAI, FIR-MCP etc etc
Makiko is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 09:06
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aus
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 0
Received 266 Likes on 145 Posts
Originally Posted by By George
It is no different coming out of an Airline with years of training experience, you still need the GA ratings. Even more bizarre under the new rules before you can be promoted to be a training captain within the Airlines you have to have an instructor rating. I have witnessed several senior captains who have been out of GA for 30 years going off to the local to get a Grade 3 so they can become a training captain. It is one thing to master the dreaded Cessna 150 after a Boeing or an Airbus but that FOI Exam, or whatever they call it, is a little doozy. I have never read anything quite like it.

'Tis the rules chaps and flexibility or common sense is a strict liability.
It's very different, the person in this instance was a qualified Air Force instructor. Which for all intents is probably a higher qualification than a CASA FIR. Airline pilots are just pilots, and unless they were previous instructors have no experience in training and the problems associated with such. There is no part of a CPL or ATPL that covers training activities and methods of instruction.

As far as I know its still not a requirement to hold a FIR to be a training captain, although it's been constantly talked about for a while.
43Inches is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 09:18
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 1A
Posts: 8,443
Received 43 Likes on 29 Posts
The applicant was seeking stuff like FIR-1, FIR-FIR, FIR-MEAI, FIR-MCP etc etc
Got it. More Robyn Ironside aviation click-bait. The Australian should be better than this.
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 09:32
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 5,026
Received 222 Likes on 125 Posts
I posted the link to the AAT's decision earlier.

Let us all give thanks that CASA did not grant the ratings for which Mr Clarke applied, and convinced the AAT that the refusal was a good decision. The skies are so much safer than they otherwise would have been if Mr Clarke now held those ratings.
Lead Balloon is online now  
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 09:56
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Brisbane, Qld
Posts: 1,358
Received 21 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by 43Inches
It's very different, the person in this instance was a qualified Air Force instructor. Which for all intents is probably a higher qualification than a CASA FIR. Airline pilots are just pilots, and unless they were previous instructors have no experience in training and the problems associated with such. There is no part of a CPL or ATPL that covers training activities and methods of instruction.

As far as I know its still not a requirement to hold a FIR to be a training captain, although it's been constantly talked about for a while.
And why should being an Air Force Instructor automatically entitle you to being able to exercise all the privileges a CASA Approved Grade 1 Instructor can? No one is saying that Adam Clarke isn't an extremely qualified Pilot and Instructor in general, CASA is saying that they likely have knowledge gaps that need to be covered before being issued the qualifications sought. Let me ask you this, if Adam Clarke walked in off the street right now, seemingly having not flown a Pistol Single as a Civilian for a few decades, would you just throw them the keys to your C172 and let them have at it?

How about for once, instead of just jumping on the CASA hate train (That they admittedly deserve a lot of the time), we instead use some common sense and say that yeah, in this case just signing some paperwork (which is all that happened according to the case details) probably wasn't enough to satisfy that they're fully able to exercise all the rights and privileges that a Grade 1 would convey them?
Ixixly is offline  
The following 10 users liked this post by Ixixly:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 10:00
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 5,026
Received 222 Likes on 125 Posts
And so, having thrown the keys to a C172 to Mr Clarke, walk us through the carnage that would have ensued.
Lead Balloon is online now  
The following users liked this post:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 10:03
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 7,296
Received 186 Likes on 121 Posts
And in the RAAF he will have been training people who have already passed all sorts of tests and examinations designed to winnow out all but the best.

At Grade 1 in civi. street you have to deal with whoever walks in off the street and has a wad of $$$ in their hand - they may be totally physically & mentally dysfunctional.

It's a different game and requires some different skills that's all
Asturias56 is offline  
The following 5 users liked this post by Asturias56:
Old 23rd Aug 2023, 10:16
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 5,026
Received 222 Likes on 125 Posts
And when one of these physically and mentally dysfunctional students with a wad of $$$ in their hand lobs up to Mr Clarke, walk us through the carnage that would have ensued had Mr Clarke been issued with the ratings for which he'd applied, and why that carnage would have ensued.
Lead Balloon is online now  
The following users liked this post:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.