Close call at ACE this afternoon.

[Flying Hi]

Watching Live on YT this afternnon (Sunday) , a Vueling lined up for take off and remained stationary for quite a long time oblivious to an Enter Air on finals. Vueling got going with Enter at c300ft!
The upshot was that Vueling got airborne at one end of the runway just as Enter landed!.
Wny didn't Enter Go Around? What took Vueling so long?
SUrely this will ge investigated.
Any more info?

[dixi188]

No Idea why the delay getting airborne but, have you ever been to Gatwick?

[Liffy 1M]

Unless you were able to listen to the ATC, it's impossible to know whether this was a well-planned manouvre (as is frequent enough at busy single-runway airports) or a case where the departing aircraft was slower to roll than expected. For a landing aircraft to go around when a departure is already taking off carries its own risks too, of course.

[Bealzebub]

I’m not sure it’s worth getting too excited at the foreshortened webcam footage on YouTube? I’m curious as to how you know the Vueling crew was “oblivious” to another aircraft on the approach? That would normally be pointed out by ATC if it was likely to be a factor, and in any event all flightdeck crew would routinely check the visual status of the approach before lining up.

Sometimes aircraft are lined up but cant then be released by ATC for a variety of reasons and sometimes aircraft cant commence their take off roll as quickly as expected, although traffic on the approach would likely be communicated to the departing crew by ATC. In any event if the aircraft on the runway is confirmed as visible to the aircraft on the approach the approaching aircraft can accept a “land after” clearance and land once is it satisfied it is safe to do so in accordance with visual Separation as seems to be the case here?

I can’t really see what there is to “investigate?”

[DaveReidUK]

FR24 is usually a good place to go for an accurate picture of events like this.

Unfortunately, a quick scan doesn't come up with any Enter Air movements at all at Lanzarote yesterday.

[Hartington]

Prior to 9/11 I was priveleged to be in the cockpit going into Heathrow. A combination of circumstances (an emergency going to 27L when we were on 27R, something falling off a departure from 27L maning the aircraft that had lined up on 27L could not depart so the emergency ended up heading for 27R) , on approach, beyond the control of the crew meant we ended up much closer than normal to the preceeding (emergency) aircraft. As the situation unfolded our captain reduced speed as much as he could and announced that over the radio. The aircraft behind us replied "I can't fly that slow".

We got clearance to land at the very last moment (we were crossing the permiter road), I had watched the captains thumb (?, it might have been another finger) moving towards the TOGA button and was expecting a go-around. Instead we landed with full reverse thrust, maximum autobrake etc and exited the runway in time for the following aircraft to land. I had colleagues in the back of the aircraft and when I asked them how the landing was they were amazed by what had happened, they had no idea.

Unless you are in the tower or, more likely, cockpit it's almost impossible to know what was going on.

Here's another example. Landed at O'Hare in a 747. Very heavy braking and quick runway exit. The captain came on as we taxied towards terminal 5, apologised for the heavy braking and then went on "the aircraft in front was a Chinese 747 and I thought you might like to get into immigration before they do".

[Flying Hi]

My bad, David.
Live webcam watchers forum tell me it was SATURDAY afternoon and Was Enter Air inbound and Vueling outbound. I cant find it either.
Time flies!
Foreshortened or not there was only the runway length separating them. The FR at the time was clear of any other outbound traffic.

[Avman]

Flying Hi, unless you have the r/t transcript to prove otherwise, I would put all my money on the fact that all parties, and especially the Enter Air, were kept in the loop at all times. Enter Air was most probably told to expect a late landing clearance. I've personally seen what you describe many times (once from the F/D landing on 15 at BHX) both in the UK and the USA where single runways are involved. It looks tight but it's well managed.

[almost professional]

Avman spot on - good vis, both crews in the loop, late landing clearance advised - just another day at the office!
As long as clearance to land issued after daylight seen under departures wheels…..

[treadigraph]

Can I just say...

I had no idea where the hell ACE was until DaveReidUK helpfully identified it. How many people keep a full list of IATA/ICAO codes memorised? Why not just type Lanzarote, it may be three times the number of letters but you're not filling out a flight plan or a luggage label...

Confused from near EGKN and formerly a very small regular at HKNW and HKNK...

[chevvron]

The controllers at Arrecife are very adept at this type of runway utilisation; they will frequently use opposite direction runways for arrivals and departures due to the slope of the runway southwards and the existence of some extinct volcanoes on climbout to the north east. I was on the flight deck once in a landing aircraft on runway 03 which was still on the runway while a 21 departure was lining up.

[Flying Hi]

Thanks for all the info.
CLearly, to the Observer (me) it looked more scary than it actually was.

[DaveReidUK]

[Flying Hi]

Thanks David. That clears it up nicely.

[Dan Dare]

When I was allowed to use “after the departing xxx cleared to land” the minima were that at the time the inbound crossed the threshold the departure should be: still on the runway 2500m down the runway or airborne and 2000m down the runway (or could be 1500m if both were props). The scenario described by the Flying Hi sounds quite normal albeit tight except Enter Air at c.300ft is unlikely to have been much less than 600ft in reality.

[DaveReidUK]

The Enter Air was at about 1 nm when the Vueling started to roll, and the latter was about 1200 m down the runway when the former crossed the numbers.

[Flying Hi]

And is that considered a suitable safety margin? ATC cannot know the point at which Vuelng would release brakes and roll and 1 mile at c140k only takes a few seconds.

[almost professional]

Not ideal, but just keep monitoring the situation and be ready with plan B…..its better than a ‘piggy back’ with the G/A eating up the departure and in my experience most crews will carry on as long as they can see and are kept informed.

[Dan Dare]

There is a almost 3000m between the aircraft in the shot provided by DaveReid so 1200m separation and rolling with the inbound at 1 mile seem unlikely. This one wouldn’t on it’s own be considered a “close call” anywhere I’ve worked. It is though unlikely that the ATCO runs things deliberately this close - the job is to move lots of traffic safely, but sometimes the situation doesn’t go as planned and the margins are eroded. Part of the tower controller role is continuously assessing the go/no go decision and deciding whether to send the inbound around (which the pilot can do at any time too). In this one it would appear that an aircraft got airborne before the inbound got to the runway, they got a landing clearance and landed. All seems fairly normal.

[chaps1954]

One presumes the Enter Air would have been ready to go around and had already discussed with the other pilot should the need arrive same as if a flock of birds flying accross
their path.
Many years ago flew into a PFA rally in Sywell now that did did make you sweat a bit when we were on mile final with 5 or six infront and a cessna cut right infront of us, was glad we
had extra eyes sat in back