Pilot Shortage in Hong Kong
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You could be right in the end, as you said time will tell. Hard to say especially since one would have to compare the higher wage costs over years (!) with "lost opportunities". If it was my airline I would have let go the entire 777 fleet and half the Airbus fleet on unpaid leave indefinitely about 1,5 years ago. I would not have paid inactive based guys for years. I also would have stopped housing Jan 2021. Training department is way to powerful in Cathay, chop all the nonsense evaluation command sims or however they are called. Replace it with a cup of tea with the Chief pilot and a 5 minute review of your training record. Cut the stupid output of cringe-worthy safety and training videos and cut the yearly new decision make tool rubbish etc etc. These guys produce work in order to be important, I would cut the third floor by half or better outsource the whole thing to CAE.
I personally do not think it is feasible nor smart to run an airline on a massive over-capacity, possibly for years, given that China's Covid-exit policy and consumer behaviour is totally unknown. Once clear you re-recruit and pay whatever is needed.
Willie Walsh's opinion on that matter I found quite amusing:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...day-chaos.html
My only direct critique of your position would be that your perspective appears to me rather self-centric. Just because we and our circle of friends don't find COS18 attractive enough doesn't mean it is not attractive in general. Not many from SA have left, and basically zero locals, as an example.
I personally do not think it is feasible nor smart to run an airline on a massive over-capacity, possibly for years, given that China's Covid-exit policy and consumer behaviour is totally unknown. Once clear you re-recruit and pay whatever is needed.
Willie Walsh's opinion on that matter I found quite amusing:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...day-chaos.html
My only direct critique of your position would be that your perspective appears to me rather self-centric. Just because we and our circle of friends don't find COS18 attractive enough doesn't mean it is not attractive in general. Not many from SA have left, and basically zero locals, as an example.
Just ensure that you also read the comments in your quoted article, for an entirely different and probably more accurate viewpoint.
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That I entirely agree with but obviously, like me, you have a sneaky look now and again? And to be fair it was not me who introduced the DM into this thread, merely expanded upon it. I do subscribe to the DT and Guardian (did I spell that correctly?) but would not give a farthing to access the DM. However I do like to seek a broad view and even still have a free look at that comic SCMP at times.
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Good times
[ I do subscribe to the DT and Guardian (did I spell that correctly?) but would not give a farthing to access the DM. [/QUOTE]
You made me chuckle!🤣
I have happy memories of school when our English master always referred to “The Grauniad” on the basis that they couldn’t even spell their masthead properly!
You made me chuckle!🤣
I have happy memories of school when our English master always referred to “The Grauniad” on the basis that they couldn’t even spell their masthead properly!
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They could probably solve the problem by offering positions to the hundreds of HK licenced Pilots they sacked. Their previous CoS, proper housing and a sign on bonus to compensate for their period of unemployment may be sufficient
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Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice... I think CX pilots have been fooled quite a few times now!
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Regarding HK opening up:
This ****hole is not opening up anytime soon (go familiarize yourselves with the new health secretary prick, not to mention mainland policy until forever = we are years away!) in terms of no quarantine, and when it finally does then it will be extremely slow progress which should favor CX with their lack of training capacity. Not that this would solve the training problem entirely, obviously.
In terms of attracting new pilots, CX will either have to lower their standards even more or raise the package. My bet is on the former.
I don't know what all this fuss is about, nor how this benign thread could stretch to 2 pages... If Vietjet and other 'low wage' airlines can recruit pilots then of course CX will be able to. It's just a matter of changing your mindset about what exactly CX now is. You get what you pay for and any pilot or passenger that doesn't do their homework before choosing Cathay in the future will only have themselves to blame when things go pear shaped. It is not rocket science.
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I have never lived or worked in Hong Kong but I am a regular inmate so my comments are therefore generic in nature and apply to the various expat pilot employers as well as Cathay. What company in its right mind thinks that they can give a 50% pay cut and expect people to hang around. They (the management) know that as pilots we cant just skip from one job to another like they can so they took a cheap shot and did what they did. Even a nincompoop with the mind of a six year old would realize that such a move would be completely irresponsible given the inevitable consequences that would shortly follow, ie finding pilots and then having to train them.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it appears that the education allowance is around 1/3 of what it would actually cost. If this is the case, what sort of desperate scum do they think we are. So they think a professional pilot is going to come to Kong Kong and fork out USD15k per child of their own money to top up the allowance while every banker, cook, BS manager and similar scammer gets it covered in full. I don't know what accommodation cost but looking at the allowance It doesn't even look remotely close to me so the same comment applies.
So they expect you to come to Hong Kong, a Hong Kong incidentally that is not the same Hong Kong as it once was, spend the best part if your life away from your home and family and live like a scum bag, put your kids in a communist local school and not save a penny. What planet are these people on!
If I were being invited to return I would demand full reinstatement of the original package and some, a lot more some, for being f%$ked around and insulted.
Should Cathay survive I think management are going to need a whole lot more than luck if they expect to find anyone. BTW I am available at twice the original A scale package adjusted for inflation.
Good luck.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it appears that the education allowance is around 1/3 of what it would actually cost. If this is the case, what sort of desperate scum do they think we are. So they think a professional pilot is going to come to Kong Kong and fork out USD15k per child of their own money to top up the allowance while every banker, cook, BS manager and similar scammer gets it covered in full. I don't know what accommodation cost but looking at the allowance It doesn't even look remotely close to me so the same comment applies.
So they expect you to come to Hong Kong, a Hong Kong incidentally that is not the same Hong Kong as it once was, spend the best part if your life away from your home and family and live like a scum bag, put your kids in a communist local school and not save a penny. What planet are these people on!
If I were being invited to return I would demand full reinstatement of the original package and some, a lot more some, for being f%$ked around and insulted.
Should Cathay survive I think management are going to need a whole lot more than luck if they expect to find anyone. BTW I am available at twice the original A scale package adjusted for inflation.
Good luck.
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The point is, they didn't give everybody a 50% pay cut, 'wink, wink'.
Clearly, as nobody here knows or is prepared to reveal the size of the Checkers allowance, then it's a case of, 'say no more, say no more; wink, wink'.
The guards at the 'Cathay Prison Experiment' have always and will always solve any and all Swire cock-ups in exchange for reciprocated privileges.
WINK! WINK!
Clearly, as nobody here knows or is prepared to reveal the size of the Checkers allowance, then it's a case of, 'say no more, say no more; wink, wink'.
The guards at the 'Cathay Prison Experiment' have always and will always solve any and all Swire cock-ups in exchange for reciprocated privileges.
WINK! WINK!
The point is, they didn't give everybody a 50% pay cut, 'wink, wink'.
Clearly, as nobody here knows or is prepared to reveal the size of the Checkers allowance, then it's a case of, 'say no more, say no more; wink, wink'.
The guards at the 'Cathay Prison Experiment' have always and will always solve any and all Swire cock-ups in exchange for reciprocated privileges.
WINK! WINK!
Clearly, as nobody here knows or is prepared to reveal the size of the Checkers allowance, then it's a case of, 'say no more, say no more; wink, wink'.
The guards at the 'Cathay Prison Experiment' have always and will always solve any and all Swire cock-ups in exchange for reciprocated privileges.
WINK! WINK!
A good mate of mine was an STC, he calculated his pay was cut by ~55% (including housing and schooling + medical). He resigned, and took an FO job at greener pastures. There are plenty of checkers and standards guys on the way out, if not gone already.
The size of the checkers allowance is known by anyone who has been at the company more than a few years
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Emotionally, the reduction in pay is relevant. But after the adjustment pain comes inevitably a more sober and useful comparison. I don't believe a company is even able to act against moral codes, there is a legal framework and that is that. A company has no soul, it is an artificial construct in order to generate maximum profit. I find the entire discussion futile, of course the company will use every chance they have to get us cheaper. To expect anything else is to me highly naive. The only reason a company might want to appear as being "moral" is to achieve again more profit.
Anyway, for me, the achievable benchmark pay in whatever country you desire to live is in the end the most relevant factor. It just will take time for us to digest the new normal is my prediction. All the venting in the crew bus, all the angry outbursts in here, in the end it is down to what you can afford. Let's be honest here, a many senior pilots could simply afford to retire. Many others will not have that luxury.
I think Weary Traveller got it right, eventually a shortage would have to appear at LCA rather than Cathay.
PS All the best, Frank. Hope you find a good alternative.
Anyway, for me, the achievable benchmark pay in whatever country you desire to live is in the end the most relevant factor. It just will take time for us to digest the new normal is my prediction. All the venting in the crew bus, all the angry outbursts in here, in the end it is down to what you can afford. Let's be honest here, a many senior pilots could simply afford to retire. Many others will not have that luxury.
I think Weary Traveller got it right, eventually a shortage would have to appear at LCA rather than Cathay.
PS All the best, Frank. Hope you find a good alternative.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 21st Jun 2022 at 09:28.
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Emotionally, the reduction in pay is relevant. But after the adjustment pain comes inevitably a more sober and useful comparison. I don't believe a company is even able to act against moral codes, there is a legal framework and that is that. A company has no soul, it is an artificial construct in order to generate maximum profit. I find the entire discussion futile, of course the company will use every chance they have to get us cheaper. To expect anything else is to me highly naive. The only reason a company might want to appear as being "moral" is to achieve again more profit.
Anyway, for me, the achievable benchmark pay in whatever country you desire to live is in the end the most relevant factor. It just will take time for us to digest the new normal is my prediction. All the venting in the crew bus, all the angry outbursts in here, in the end it is down to what you can afford. Let's be honest here, a many senior pilots could simply afford to retire. Many others will not have that luxury.
I think Weary Traveller got it right, eventually a shortage would have to appear at LCA rather than Cathay.
PS All the best, Frank. Hope you find a good alternative.
Anyway, for me, the achievable benchmark pay in whatever country you desire to live is in the end the most relevant factor. It just will take time for us to digest the new normal is my prediction. All the venting in the crew bus, all the angry outbursts in here, in the end it is down to what you can afford. Let's be honest here, a many senior pilots could simply afford to retire. Many others will not have that luxury.
I think Weary Traveller got it right, eventually a shortage would have to appear at LCA rather than Cathay.
PS All the best, Frank. Hope you find a good alternative.
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Of course the Covid restrictions have to be included in the equation. Maybe for you the pricetag of freedom is so high Cathay will never be able to make it up, but not everybody will have these strict preferences. In general, more money will always result in more demand. What you are describing is a non-elastic relationship, very rare in reality.
PS When I say it is about money I am NOT saying it doesn't make sense to accept less somewhere else. I am saying that your personal price is not met by the supply curently on offer in HK.
PSS I hope your goalposts won't move. My personal experience tells me this is not very likely.
PS When I say it is about money I am NOT saying it doesn't make sense to accept less somewhere else. I am saying that your personal price is not met by the supply curently on offer in HK.
PSS I hope your goalposts won't move. My personal experience tells me this is not very likely.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 21st Jun 2022 at 11:20.
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Of course the Covid restrictions have to be included in the equation. Maybe for you the pricetag of freedom is so high Cathay will never be able to make it up, but not everybody will have these strict preferences. In general, more money will always result in more demand. What you are describing is a non-elastic relationship, very rare in reality.
PS When I say it is about money I am NOT saying it doesn't make sense to accept less somewhere else. I am saying that your personal price is not met by the supply curently on offer in HK.
PS When I say it is about money I am NOT saying it doesn't make sense to accept less somewhere else. I am saying that your personal price is not met by the supply curently on offer in HK.
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lets list all the problems. I will start.
- unable to commute
- unable to travel on vacation
- unable to see family on a regular basis
- stuck in hotel room on a layover
- silly amounts of paperwork to do due to covid rules.
- long delays at no extra pay, whole days work for a tpe turnaround
- frequent covid tests
- vindictive rostering that will change your roster to keep you below the 'free' monthly hour zone, can't complain about that anymore as it's not in cos-18
- late rosters
- basings are gone
- temp basings were shambles
- no sympathy from cx
- no flexibility from cx to make life livable.
- no attempt to stem the exodus
- by not seeming to care for loss of 100s of years of experience, experience levels will drop in the flight deck, making it all round just harder work.
- unsure if cx will be sold or will even be able to survive.
- morale is very low, looks like anyone with options is leaving, those that do not will stay and will be miserable.
- all this for less money
who can add a few more?
- unable to commute
- unable to travel on vacation
- unable to see family on a regular basis
- stuck in hotel room on a layover
- silly amounts of paperwork to do due to covid rules.
- long delays at no extra pay, whole days work for a tpe turnaround
- frequent covid tests
- vindictive rostering that will change your roster to keep you below the 'free' monthly hour zone, can't complain about that anymore as it's not in cos-18
- late rosters
- basings are gone
- temp basings were shambles
- no sympathy from cx
- no flexibility from cx to make life livable.
- no attempt to stem the exodus
- by not seeming to care for loss of 100s of years of experience, experience levels will drop in the flight deck, making it all round just harder work.
- unsure if cx will be sold or will even be able to survive.
- morale is very low, looks like anyone with options is leaving, those that do not will stay and will be miserable.
- all this for less money
who can add a few more?
Last edited by Oasis; 21st Jun 2022 at 13:04.