Class 1 medical But is it valid?
Thread Starter
Class 1 medical But is it valid?
Here's an interesting hypothetical:
EASA class 1 initial medical done 10 years ago at Gatwick.
Revalidated without fail every year in Ireland as an IAA medical.
Recently revalidated (although no licence ever issued.)
Can the holder apply for an Irish licence?
EASA class 1 initial medical done 10 years ago at Gatwick.
Revalidated without fail every year in Ireland as an IAA medical.
Recently revalidated (although no licence ever issued.)
Can the holder apply for an Irish licence?
If the medical is revalidated as an IAA medical it is an EASA Part-Med Class 1 Medical, this is the case regardless of where the initial issue was carried out. I assume you now have a bit of paper stating your medical is issued by the IAA. At some point after initial issue by the UK CAA in Gatwick it must have been transferred to the IAA who now hold your medical records, this is the only way it would be possible for revalidation to be done as an IAA medical. To answer your question the state of initial licence issue and the state holding the pilot's medical records must match, so in this case you would indeed be able to apply for an Irish licence but not a UK one.
Thread Starter
If only it were that simple... The whole point of EASA is that you can get a medical anywhere - without that country holding your medical records.
In this (hypothetical!) case, you would have a valid IAA medical, but the IAA would not hold your medical records, as they are currently held by a (now) non-EASA country.
Since the issuance of a pilot licence requires holding the medical records - would the IAA accept those records post-brexit, or would they revoke the medical?
In this (hypothetical!) case, you would have a valid IAA medical, but the IAA would not hold your medical records, as they are currently held by a (now) non-EASA country.
Since the issuance of a pilot licence requires holding the medical records - would the IAA accept those records post-brexit, or would they revoke the medical?
Sorry, that isn't true. The whole point of EASA is Part-Med, which are common standards across all member states, however records still need to be held by the state issuing the medical. I know several people (pre-Brexit) who received an initial Class 1 from Gatwick and then on trying to get an IAA Class 1 were required to undergo a new Class 1 Initial in Dublin as the medical records needed to be transferred and could not be on that occasion. You cannot hold a medical certificate from an EASA member state without them holding your records.
In short if your medical records aren't held by the IAA, you don't have an IAA medical.
In short if your medical records aren't held by the IAA, you don't have an IAA medical.
Again, two points
- The state of initial issue of a licence and the state issuing the pilots medical certificate must match (even within EASA)
- The state issuing a medical certificate must hold the pilots medical records.
Thread Starter
Your first point is correct.
Your second point is where the problem lies: The state of licence issue must hold your medical records: Agreed.
However you can still take a French licence and French medical into a Spanish AME and walk out the door with a French licence and Spanish medical.
The Spanish do not need to hold your medical records, they merely need to send a copy of your latest certificate to the French (who still hold your records) - otherwise every time someone gets a medical in a different state they'd have to SOLI which would be ridiculous, even for EASA!
The concept of one state (sensibly the licence issuing state) holding your medical records, whilst any other state can issue you a medical - exists to stop people playing one state off against the other.
So, in this hypothetical scenario the IAA would have taken the expiring UK EASA medical, revalidated it as an IAA medical and informed the UK CAA of the revalidation. The interesting part of the scenario is that there was no licence ever issued, the CAA acting as "placeholder" for licencing purposes. So fast forward 10 years - Is the medical valid or not? It's a legitimate IAA revalidation of the previous IAA certificate so yes. But can the IAA issue a licence since they don't hold the medical records? Normally they would have to SOLI in - except there's nothing to SOLI as there's no licence...
So the question is: would they accept the medical records from the CAA or not? And if not - how does this medical exist?
Your second point is where the problem lies: The state of licence issue must hold your medical records: Agreed.
However you can still take a French licence and French medical into a Spanish AME and walk out the door with a French licence and Spanish medical.
The Spanish do not need to hold your medical records, they merely need to send a copy of your latest certificate to the French (who still hold your records) - otherwise every time someone gets a medical in a different state they'd have to SOLI which would be ridiculous, even for EASA!
The concept of one state (sensibly the licence issuing state) holding your medical records, whilst any other state can issue you a medical - exists to stop people playing one state off against the other.
So, in this hypothetical scenario the IAA would have taken the expiring UK EASA medical, revalidated it as an IAA medical and informed the UK CAA of the revalidation. The interesting part of the scenario is that there was no licence ever issued, the CAA acting as "placeholder" for licencing purposes. So fast forward 10 years - Is the medical valid or not? It's a legitimate IAA revalidation of the previous IAA certificate so yes. But can the IAA issue a licence since they don't hold the medical records? Normally they would have to SOLI in - except there's nothing to SOLI as there's no licence...
So the question is: would they accept the medical records from the CAA or not? And if not - how does this medical exist?
Its a totally bonkers situation which I feel requires an application of common sense rather than unchartered applied regulation. There wasn’t any divergence from EASA standards or regs when you completed the medical therefore regardless of who said what, who wrote what or which piece of paper things were written down on, the fact remains that you were deemed medically fit in accordance and therefore should be entitled to hold said medical until it’s expiry date. Call me mental but the sooner authorities stop with the BS the better.
Strictly speaking only one EASA member state should hold your records. So even if it renewed in another state that state of initial issue needs to be informed as you pointed out.
So if you want to have initial issue of a licence with the IAA those records will need to be transferred from the UK CAA to the IAA. However I have a friend who found himself in a similar situation some time ago having done a Class 1 Initial at Gatwick and then holding a UK CAA issued EASA PPL. He then did CPL training in Ireland and to be issued with the CPL needed the IAA to hold his medical records. He attempted transfer from the UK CAA to the IAA but was instead requested by the IAA to do another Class 1 Initial in Dublin.
So in short, I would try and get the IAA to transfer the records, if they do, they do, if they won't they will make you do another Class 1 Initial.
So if you want to have initial issue of a licence with the IAA those records will need to be transferred from the UK CAA to the IAA. However I have a friend who found himself in a similar situation some time ago having done a Class 1 Initial at Gatwick and then holding a UK CAA issued EASA PPL. He then did CPL training in Ireland and to be issued with the CPL needed the IAA to hold his medical records. He attempted transfer from the UK CAA to the IAA but was instead requested by the IAA to do another Class 1 Initial in Dublin.
So in short, I would try and get the IAA to transfer the records, if they do, they do, if they won't they will make you do another Class 1 Initial.
Last edited by Fostex; 27th Aug 2021 at 14:09.
Yes, pre-brexit, 2012 if I recall.
To have the CPL issued by the UK CAA he would have needed to be examined by a UK CAA examiner or jumped through the following hoops with an IAA examiner. In short, easier just to get an IAA licence.
The Regulation 1178/2011, Part FCL, paragraph FCL.1005 says that the EASA flight examiner shall carry out skill tests, proficiency checks or assessments of competence of the candidate, whose license has been issued by the different competent authority than the competent authority of the flight examiner if he:
To have the CPL issued by the UK CAA he would have needed to be examined by a UK CAA examiner or jumped through the following hoops with an IAA examiner. In short, easier just to get an IAA licence.
The Regulation 1178/2011, Part FCL, paragraph FCL.1005 says that the EASA flight examiner shall carry out skill tests, proficiency checks or assessments of competence of the candidate, whose license has been issued by the different competent authority than the competent authority of the flight examiner if he:
- inform the competent (issuing) authority of the applicantīs license of his intention to conduct the skill test, proficiency check or assessment of competence
- inform the competent (issuing) authority of the applicantīs license about the scope of his flight examiner privileges;
- completed an instruction (briefing) from the competent (issuing) authority of the candidateīs license
Last edited by Fostex; 27th Aug 2021 at 22:09.
