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Scottish Independence vs Military assets

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Scottish Independence vs Military assets

Old 10th May 2021, 14:11
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Scottish Independence vs Military assets

It appears that the issue of Scottiish Independence may soon be addressed again, if the SNP have their way. I have my own views on the merits of this, as I am sure most do (craving independence only to re-join the EU and give it away again , relying heavily on oil revenues when the whole world is going green and they don't own the oil, basing recovery on the abilities of one of the most unhealthy workforces in Europe etc etc), but my question is not about whether Scotland should leave, but about the UK's military assets and other related issues. I would like the opinions and views of the sage PPRuNe contributors.

Examples:
-There is a lot of investment going on at Lossie for Wedgetail, Poseidon etc. Does the base close and are all assets moved South of the border? Scottish taxes paid for part of the work, so how is this addressed?
- If UK bases remain in Scotland, are they given 'Sovereign' rights ie. SBA's in Cyprus?
-There are a lot of Scots in the UK Forces, and indeed entirely Scottish regiments. Do they remain in the Service of the UK Armed Forces when Scotland is not in the UK? If they get the right to stay, then can a Scot who is not currently serving joing the UK Forces? Can an Englishman join any future 'Scottish' military?
- Trident (and replacement)??

Interesting times.

Baldeep Inminj is offline  
Old 10th May 2021, 14:24
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This was thrashed about last time and I'm not sure that its worth re-opening

To be blunt no-one has a clue and it all depends on

a) there being another referendum

b) Scotland voting to go

c) the exact terms agreed THEN - no point in all arguing what "should" happen in all our varied opinions as it will absolutely no effect on the actual negotiations and what WILL happen
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 10th May 2021, 15:48
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
This was thrashed about last time and I'm not sure that its worth re-opening

To be blunt no-one has a clue and it all depends on

a) there being another referendum

b) Scotland voting to go

c) the exact terms agreed THEN - no point in all arguing what "should" happen in all our varied opinions as it will absolutely no effect on the actual negotiations and what WILL happen
This in a nutshell is the enormously frustrating thing about the independence "debate"- it's a chicken and egg situation. If people vote to leave on the grounds that nobody knows what will happen, why vote to leave in the first place? The merits are obviously not clear and neither are the negatives, although to my mind the risks are pretty clear. Anyone gambling the entire economy on a "what's the worst that could happen?" attitude shouldn't be allowed within a million miles of a political party, let alone actually be in government. Of course the Nat's argument is that the one thing that would be guaranteed would be sovereignty, and apparently that's enough for some people. Personally I think sharing a house is better than nailing the door to your bedroom closed just so that you can call it yours, but maybe I just can't see the big picture.

Ultimately though we won't get answers to these questions unless the UK gov spells it out, because the Nats will do anything and everything to keep the subject as vague and fuzzy as possible. It's much easier to sell a dream than a reality check.
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Old 10th May 2021, 19:14
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One reason giving for leaving is that they are fed up with being dictated to by and external authority ie Whitehall.
Sooooooo, ditch Whitehall and do what Brussels tells you.

Personally I don't see the sense in them leaving, but then, I don't get a vote in that referendum.
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Old 11th May 2021, 07:52
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Hamster post has a great deal of common sense but it also illustrate an on-going problem

With both the EU and Scotland the English always talk about "economics" (as in the Common Market) whilst the other side is talking about a political vision.

The Scots Nats (the EU ) don't CARE about the economic case - they want to run their own show and will do whatever it takes AFTERWARDS to to make it run as a country

Napoleon was right in many ways when he described the English as " a nation of shopkeepers" -and even the greatest patriot would be hard pressed to suggest that "grand projects" are something the English want
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Old 11th May 2021, 08:42
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
With both the EU and Scotland the English always talk about "economics" (as in the Common Market) whilst the other side is talking about a political vision.

The Scots Nats (the EU ) don't CARE about the economic case - they want to run their own show and will do whatever it takes AFTERWARDS to to make it run as a country
I would argue 9/10ths of what a government does is defined by economics. A government with no money is just a group of people in a room making wishes they have no power to enforce. This goes doubly for socialist governments who rely on taxing the rich to provide for the poor- you need to have rich people in your country for that to work, that relies on businesses, they rely on policies, etc etc.

You're absolutely right that many voting for Indy don't care about the economic argument- but that's only because they've already lost it. If the case were stronger it would be on the front of every flier.

Scotland will manage to get by with a weaker economy, yes. But I do wonder what solace those in poorer families will find in greater sovereignty when the resulting Austerity hits. Probably much the same as the fishermen who voted to leave the EU only to find they couldn't sell any fish. Turns out, money is quite important to most people.
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Old 11th May 2021, 10:34
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But I do wonder what solace those in poorer families will find in greater sovereignty when the resulting Austerity hits.
Whatever the economise woes brought on by independence might be the Nats would surely blame the UK Government.

It would be the UK's fault for not providing a batter departure settlement.

It would be the UK's fault for not being a more supportive neighbour.

It would be the UK's fault for not re joining the EU.

It would go on, and on and on.
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Old 11th May 2021, 10:45
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Should Scotland break from the union, then WRT the bases, no different to the Ukrainians allowing Russia to use Sevastopol.

Nothing to worry about.



JAS
Just a spotter is offline  
Old 11th May 2021, 10:47
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There is already a thread on JB for this political argument. Do we really need to have it here as well?
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Old 11th May 2021, 11:12
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Originally Posted by Spartacan View Post
Whatever the economise woes brought on by independence might be the Nats would surely blame the UK Government.

It would be the UK's fault for not providing a batter departure settlement.

It would be the UK's fault for not being a more supportive neighbour.

It would be the UK's fault for not re joining the EU.

It would go on, and on and on.
Just being a pedant. It wouldn't be the UK's fault as it would be the DUK's - The Dis-United Kingdom...

The sentiments are correct though. It would always be someone else's fault.
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Old 11th May 2021, 11:29
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Originally Posted by Saintsman View Post
Just being a pedant. It wouldn't be the UK's fault as it would be the DUK's - The Dis-United Kingdom...

The sentiments are correct though. It would always be someone else's fault.
You are not being pedantic. You have raised the most important question of all and nobody has the answer to it.

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Old 11th May 2021, 11:39
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Scottish Independence - At What Cost?

In adding my two penny‘worth I may be coming across as a tad controversial, but, then I’ll only be living up to the late, great TE Utley’s definition of an Ulsterman viz ‘The first to give, and the first to take offence’. So here goes!!

Anyone who knows me will realise I’m an avowed ‘Capital-U’ Unionist both by upbringing and instinct, so it would break my heart if, following any independence referendum, the SNP should succeed in breaking up the Union. However, before any referendum is held then the UK Government should make the SNP and the Scottish people aware of the following.

On the day of secession HM The Queen immediately ceases to be the Head of State of an independent Scotland.

Within a clearly defined period (say two to five years) the following should come into effect:

a. The Pound Sterling can no longer be the currency of Scotland;

b. There will be no further fiscal assistance or intervention from Westminster;

c. All UK military bases and personnel to be withdrawn from Scotland and relocated at suitable locations within the remainder of the UK;

d. The regular and reserve battalions of the Royal Regiment of Scotland be given the option of remaining within the orbat of the British Army or being disbanded with all the honour due to their, and their forebears, gallant service (with similar options being given to similar reserve units of the RN and RAF);

e. All military personnel currently serving in the UK armed forces who were born in Scotland should be given the option to remain on their current terms of service or to be honourably discharged;

f. All UK Civil Service facilities in Scotland to be relocated to the remainder of the UK and their personnel based in Scotland given the option to relocate, or to accept a ‘length of service and seniority’ based redundancy package;

g. No preferential treatment to be given to Scottish industry or manufacturers for any defence or other UK Government contracts; and, finally,

h. A 'hard' border be established between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

These courses of action may seem harsh, and for someone with close familial and work-related ties to Scotland I don’t suggest them lightly. However, they are neither vindictive nor punitive, as the following should be noted.

Firstly, the SNP cannot have their cake and eat it…either they are an independent nation, making their own way in the ‘big, bad world’ whilst standing on their own two feet, or they’re not.

And secondly, in the event of any ‘Border Poll’ in Northern Ireland signalling the reunification of the island of Ireland into a single political entity then all of the tenets that I have outlined above would most certainly be imposed on the people of Northern Ireland!! So why should an independent Scotland be treated any differently?

Will the UK Government do this? Almost certainly not!! If it did lay out all (or some) of what I have proposed, would it change the outcome of any referendum? It almost certainly would!!

What you have to realise that on a 63% turnout only 49% of the Scottish people voted for pro-Independence parties; that's only 30.87% of the total Scottish electorate. So to use a Scottish aphorism - the SNP’s ‘coat is on a shuggly peg’!! Obviously, the cry for 'Freedom' is not as clear cut as Ms Sturgeon et al would have you believe!!
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Old 11th May 2021, 12:18
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Aside from all the other drawbacks mentioned above, I assume, amongst a million other things, that a big box with all the DVLA records and Companies House records would be slung over the border and Jimmie Krankie would be left to get on with it. The CAA would immediately rescind all airworthiness certificates for anybody based in or operating out of Scotland.

If Her Madge's forces were withdrawn, who'd stop the Ruskies flying their Bears where they wanted ?

Most people I know in industry, particularly those who live and work in their Scottish company's premises in England dread the thought of independence because they know that their income stream would stop right away. and they wouldn't get any more work from us.
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Old 11th May 2021, 15:35
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OJ72,

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that everything that is British is in fact English.

The Queen will still be the head of state of Scotland, just as she is the head of state of numerous Commonwealth countries that gained independence.

The Scots can call their currency whatever they like, if they want to call it Pound Sterling they have every right. Just that the Bank of England will no longer be lender of last resort.

I would imagine that on independence everyone living in Scotland will have the right to call themselves Scottish citizens.

Anyone living in England, Wales or Northern Ireland will remain British and would have to relocate to claim Scottish citizenship, be they military or civilian.

All UK Civil Service facilities are as much Scottish as they are 'English" and will be divided up as part of any settlement. You can't just assume that they are all English!

Emotionally I like the idea of an independent Scotland, and a reunified Ireland for that matter.

But the economic cost to Scotland could be immense.

The economic cost to England would be negligible and mainly concern relocation of certain military nuclear facilities.

The UK is the fifth largest economy in the world. England would still be the fifth largest economy in the world, Scotland would be about 154th...

That is a LOT of influence and clout to give up.

Dave Gittins,

You make a good point. In addition to things such as DVLA and Companies House, an independent Scotland would have to set up a diplomatic service, embassies and all the paraphernalia that goes with being an independent nation.





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Old 11th May 2021, 15:43
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Oh, and as for Russian Bears, I would imagine that there would be no change from the current situation.
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Old 11th May 2021, 15:50
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Treat the Jocks the same way we treated the Mick’s after they gained independence.
Don’t let them travel freely to the U.K.,vote,use the NHS,claim benefits or serve in ‘our’ armed forces.............................................🤦🏻‍♂️
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Old 11th May 2021, 16:00
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
OJ72,

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that everything that is British is in fact English.

The Queen will still be the head of state of Scotland, just as she is the head of state of numerous Commonwealth countries that gained independence.

The Scots can call their currency whatever they like, if they want to call it Pound Sterling they have every right. Just that the Bank of England will no longer be lender of last resort.

I would imagine that on independence everyone living in Scotland will have the right to call themselves Scottish citizens.

Anyone living in England, Wales or Northern Ireland will remain British and would have to relocate to claim Scottish citizenship, be they military or civilian.

All UK Civil Service facilities are as much Scottish as they are 'English" and will be divided up as part of any settlement. You can't just assume that they are all English!

Emotionally I like the idea of an independent Scotland, and a reunified Ireland for that matter.

But the economic cost to Scotland could be immense.

The economic cost to England would be negligible and mainly concern relocation of certain military nuclear facilities.

The UK is the fifth largest economy in the world. England would still be the fifth largest economy in the world, Scotland would be about 154th...

That is a LOT of influence and clout to give up.

Dave Gittins,

You make a good point. In addition to things such as DVLA and Companies House, an independent Scotland would have to set up a diplomatic service, embassies and all the paraphernalia that goes with being an independent nation.
I thought the saying was, if you choose to leave the club, then you can’t expect to still use the facilities. You are quite correct, they are UK assets. I would imagine that IScot is about 8%, that also includes UK debt.
Who is going to be the guarantor of all those Scottish mortgages when there is no bank?
I am not making any comment about the rights and wrongs of IScot, I don’t get a vote, mores the pity.
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Old 11th May 2021, 16:12
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It does rather beg the question whether the leadership of the SNP as opposed to their supporters actually want independence. The emperor’s clothes would seem a little threadbare.

FWIW an ethnic Scot

YS
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Old 11th May 2021, 16:19
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"Who is going to be the guarantor of all those Scottish mortgages when there is no bank?"

The Central bank doesn't guarantee mortgages - you get them from a commercial organisation - such as the Bank of Scotland plc - or the Halifax

It's the currency a C Bank manages - and they could just adopt the Euro (which for 25 years some folk in England have been claiming "can't last")
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Old 11th May 2021, 16:26
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Originally Posted by OJ 72 View Post
What you have to realise that on a 63% turnout only 49% of the Scottish people voted for pro-Independence parties; that's only 30.87% of the total Scottish electorate. So to use a Scottish aphorism - the SNP’s ‘coat is on a shuggly peg’!! Obviously, the cry for 'Freedom' is not as clear cut as Ms Sturgeon et al would have you believe!!
And only 32% for remaining in the Union.
Those who show up...
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