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Ryanair GPWS @ Bergerac

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Ryanair GPWS @ Bergerac

Old 27th Jun 2020, 20:38
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Ryanair GPWS @ Bergerac

I haven’t seen this one mentioned before, it seems the Swiss cheese nearly lined up.

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/...139031.article

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Old 27th Jun 2020, 20:52
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These types of approaches should have been banned a long time ago. They are not fit for purpose in the modern day and have a long history of tragic accidents associated with them.

Yes I can fly one. But the paying public sat in the back deserve better.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 21:23
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Couldn't agree more, why would we go back to 1960's or whatever technology this was used in back in the day when we got much more easier and more accurate equipment to fly more routine approaches.

I'd be sweating bullets if I had to fly this approach on the line in HDG Select and V/S, there is just so much more that can go wrong and the fact we never ever practice these approaches only makes the margin for error greater.

It would be all fine and dandy if we were flying once every few days and fresh but on a long 4 sector day waking up at all sorts of hours in the morning with high workload days these approaches are not a benefit to flight crew.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 21:49
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I did one on my IR test in 1989 in an Aztec. The next time I did one for real (needles don’t wander in a sim) was in the LHS of a Boeing 767 into HUY. Quite remarkable that we managed to safely land off it.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 22:20
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Originally Posted by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP View Post
These types of approaches should have been banned a long time ago. They are not fit for purpose in the modern day and have a long history of tragic accidents associated with them.

Yes I can fly one. But the paying public sat in the back deserve better.
Very very much agree, but TBF as the report states Bergerac did have/do have published RNAV procedures to that runway.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 23:12
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Nothing to do with NDB navaid. Spatial disorientation, unable to use the FMS coding and/or get overwhelmed by it at the same time.

There's a step-down fix of 1460 ft over the NDB station, 4 miles out on the centre-line. The A/C descended through that altitude
- 20 degrees off the centerline track
- 10 miles away from the field
- on a heading that was almost perpendicular to the final track.

Missing a step-down fix on the final approach by 90 degrees of track error, .... can't blame the radio signal.

Last edited by FlightDetent; 28th Jun 2020 at 00:15.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 23:35
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Missing a step-down fix on the final approach by 90 degrees of track error​​​​​​
Did they do that?

As I understand it they approached the NDB ( "BGC") from the NNE, overflew it SSW bound (at about 90 degrees off inbound course) and then performed a direct join, left turn to fly downwind on the procedure hold at 2500 feet .. However as I see it then went all wrong when, immediately at the end of the downwind hold leg, at the start of the base turn, the pilot flying commenced a further descent rather than flying level until being established inbound towards the NDB.

Plates etc are here:

Incident: Ryanair B738 at Bergerac on Jan 29th 2015, descended below minimum safe altitude on NDB approach

Last edited by wiggy; 27th Jun 2020 at 23:57.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 23:57
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Agreed. The point I was trying to make was they ended up ignoring the easily understandable vertical profile as well. That suggests the lateral guidance was not at fault, even if grossly misunderstood already. More likely the first victim, not the reason behind the disarray.

Donald Bateman was an angel who walked the Earth.

Last edited by FlightDetent; 28th Jun 2020 at 00:18.
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 00:00
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Yep...OK, agreed ..It looks like for whatever reason the crew didn't comprehend the vertical profile depicted on the charts.
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 00:12
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Slightly puzzled - why did it take 5 and a half years to investigate?
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 01:12
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Does the final report have any explanation of the apparent investigation timescale, which on the face of it seems unbelievably poor?
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 06:24
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Crew lost SA and got it in a pickle. However, on receiving a GPWS hard warming they did what they were supposed to do and climbed back to 4000 feet (I would assume they performed the terrain escape manoeuvre but the flightglobal article doesn't use that expression).

If all crews who have found themselves in a similar situation over the years had done the same a lot of people would be alive who sadly now aren't.

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Old 28th Jun 2020, 07:04
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Glad to see the report was produced within a timely manner -
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 07:35
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Originally Posted by LookingForAJob View Post
Slightly puzzled - why did it take 5 and a half years to investigate?
the BEA adjourned for lunch!
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 07:42
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It wasnít me!

I was off sick that day.
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 07:56
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Lunch alone does not cut it. Must've been combined with a fag break.
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 08:08
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Originally Posted by Max Tow View Post
Does the final report have any explanation of the apparent investigation timescale, which on the face of it seems unbelievably poor?

They've probably been on strike Since then 😏
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 08:50
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Hey give the BEA guys a break ! It is only an incident . They have had their hands full with major accidents in the last 5 years And they have only a limited number of staff . They are also asked for their expertise (and tools ) in almost all the last ones . Including now the Ukraine 737 in Iran for instance.
It is about priorities I guess
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 09:37
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Guys, sh1t happens, they got got out of it in one piece and most likely got chewed out and retrained appropriately (at least I hope so).
I am more concerned by people claiming that it is unsafe to fly a Raw Data NDB approach with 2 engines and the autopilot.
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 09:40
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Interesting one. Many holes in the cheese but at least there was no confusion over what an EGPWS alert meant.

I find it fascinating that a crew can get spatially disoriented when there is an electronic map in front of them showing exactly where they are relative to the final approach track and giving distance to the runway. Mode confusion, dissimilar mental models, decreasing SA... Itís all there to learn from.
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